Vertical Up MIG Help

admin

I'm new to welding, about two years, hobby only. I've been trying to improve on vertical up welding. I have a MM211, running 230v, 0.030 wire, C25 at about 20cfh on 1/8" ground clean mild steel with the ground lead attached to the work piece. I think that covers all the set up. I start the weld using a triangle pattern and it doesn't sound right, no sizzle, kind of quite almost like it's just losing power. It may even start to sound like a machine gun thinking the wire speed it too fast. Changing the wfs doesn't help I went up and down. And it looks like a real small puddle. I checked wire tension and verified no binding in the wire and it feeds steady. Using the same settings (4.5 and 65) I can stop going up and reverse and go down and it suddenly starts sound good again, nice strong sizzle.  I use the same settings on a fillet weld and it goes great. Is there a big difference in vertical up settings from all other positions? Thanks
Reply:Maybe this will help.    http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/...technique.html
Reply:I've watched this video and many others. They mostly address technique and not so much on settings. I seem to get a somewhat decent weld, definitely not perfect. It just goes very slow due to the way the welder is acting. I'm just looking for someone with experience in vertical up to get some setup help or if it's something else I may be doing wrong.
Reply:1/8 steel.????Go downhill.Please.Don't go uphill.period.Just a couple welders, big hammers, grinders, and torches.Work will free you.Men in dirty jeans built this country, while men in clean suits have destroyed it. Trump/Carson 2016-2024
Reply:1/8th mild steel.  DOWNHILL.  Physics not kind to vertical up on 1/8" HRS.  Tight n focused down wins.Last edited by ManoKai; 04-05-2014 at 04:02 PM."Discovery is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody else has thought" - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
Reply:Not knowing any better I keep hearing downhill doesn't penetrate well. I guess the next question would be, at what thickness would you change from downhill to up? Thanks for the replies, this really helps.
Reply:Attachment 681121We'll that worked nice. Top photo is uphill and the other one is downhill. Still need a lot of practice and tuning, but what a difference. Thanks again
Reply:Actually we teach uphill mig on 1/8" all the time at the tech school. That's all we do. If you can run uphill you can do downhill no problem. I almost never suggest guys run downhill unless it's on non structural sheet. If it needs to hold and it's 14 ga or better, run uphill. 16 ga vertical up is doable, but with small .023 wire and a good hand.We run close to the same settings on vertical as we do with horizontal. Flat we tend to run hotter. As backwards as it sounds, heat is your friend in vertical. Way to many guys try to weld way to cold in vertical. To me your weld looks cold. I'd go up in voltage at least to 5 and adjust wire speed accordingly. I might even go hotter. I'd have to run it to tell. What tells me you are cold is that the center doesn't look too humped, but the toes don't look as washed in as I'd like. Jumping up the wire speed will probably put in too much wire and give you a lumpier weld. The other issue that I often see is guys are too far away from the plate when running vertical so they can see better. The longer stick out causes a colder bead. Solution is to either get in tighter, or increase your voltage to compensate.To me your vert down looks like poor. Too fast even if it is smooth. Those pointy ripples need to get smoothed out. Even then penetration is poor on 1/8" and I wouldn't trust the beads for anything where strength might matter. To me vert down is a crutch for most people. It allows the to make pretty beads that are poor and think they can weld. In reality they can't weld well. I'll admit there are uses for vertical down welding thin sheet material and if used for that purpose it's fine. However I seldom see guys welding up range hoods or other thin sheet projects, especially out of 1/8" sheet..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Here is some .030” I ran vertically up hill on 10-GA. In the early 1980s I was in a welding crew sheeting an 80'x80'x70' tall building with 4'x8'x10-GA sheets. All vertical welds were made up hill. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWActually we teach uphill mig on 1/8" all the time at the tech school. That's all we do. If you can run uphill you can do downhill no problem. I almost never suggest guys run downhill unless it's on non structural sheet. If it needs to hold and it's 14 ga or better, run uphill. 16 ga vertical up is doable, but with small .023 wire and a good hand.We run close to the same settings on vertical as we do with horizontal. Flat we tend to run hotter. As backwards as it sounds, heat is your friend in vertical. Way to many guys try to weld way to cold in vertical. To me your weld looks cold. I'd go up in voltage at least to 5 and adjust wire speed accordingly. I might even go hotter. I'd have to run it to tell. What tells me you are cold is that the center doesn't look too humped, but the toes don't look as washed in as I'd like. Jumping up the wire speed will probably put in too much wire and give you a lumpier weld. The other issue that I often see is guys are too far away from the plate when running vertical so they can see better. The longer stick out causes a colder bead. Solution is to either get in tighter, or increase your voltage to compensate.To me your vert down looks like poor. Too fast even if it is smooth. Those pointy ripples need to get smoothed out. Even then penetration is poor on 1/8" and I wouldn't trust the beads for anything where strength might matter. To me vert down is a crutch for most people. It allows the to make pretty beads that are poor and think they can weld. In reality they can't weld well. I'll admit there are uses for vertical down welding thin sheet material and if used for that purpose it's fine. However I seldom see guys welding up range hoods or other thin sheet projects, especially out of 1/8" sheet.
Reply:I agree it was too fast going downhill. Just trying to get used to it. Now it brings back the original question. What would cause the welder to appear it's "dying" out? Going up it seams like it's a very small puddle and doesn't have a very strong sizzle. It even appears to be feeding the wire too fast sometimes, extreme popping. I tried going up and down on the voltage and wfs with out any better results. I can use the same settings on downhill, horizontal and flat and they all work great. Any thoughts?
Reply:In a nut shell, it's about learning to read the puddle. I know you know that Terry, it's more for those that don't.More speed and heat as well as a short stick out will help, but it's all about watching and manipulating the puddle. I like to weld as fast and hot as I can and still control the puddle. I like to do a slight side to side motion when running vertical mig. Move to one side and wait for the puddle to catch up to the arc and then quickly cross the center and wait again for the puddle to catch the arc before going up and across to the other side to begin again. Most times my side to side motion is small, maybe 1/16" side to side or so and I move up maybe  1/16" or less up on each repetitive motion. For this I'm assuming stringers, not weaves. My weaves are similar, just bigger, but I still go side to side as fast as I can control the puddle and move up in tiny increments based on how big my puddle needs to be to accomplish what I want to do.As I weld it often looks like I have the shakes as I go up and if they don't know what to look for it's easy to miss. I like to do a wide exaggerated weave as a demo 1st. That way the student can see me pause at each end and watch the puddle catch up to the arc before I shift up slightly and start back the other direction to pause again for the arc to catch up. Then I cut the size of the demo in half and run it again asking if they can see me pause and the arc catch up. If they can I'll  then go down to the way I normally weld and see if they can't pick that up. There's also a clear change in sound many times the moment the puddle catches up to the arc. Not everyone can hear the change in sound though.In the pict I'd say the up motion is at least 1/4" from looking at the edge of the 1/8" plate and looking at the toes where he makes each motion. I'd want to use 1/4 of that, so I'd do 4 side to side motions for each of his. Because I'm traveling up less, I don't have to move as slow to get things to fill, and that tends to flatten the bead, and allows me to run hotter with more control because the puddle isn't as big and heavy and gravity isn't fighting me. The surface tension of the metal helps keep it in place. If you are serious about having issues with this Terry Pm me. We can talk..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Point the gun "up"....  I haven't read anyone mentioning that...Stuff it....Side to side mostly....  But watch the center....Sometimes , light soap stone lines can help guide your size.... Oh yeah...  Practice , practice , practice.....Gotta Fly.....PS  These Certs are ASMW CODE.... But I also have plenty years STATE certified..... Attached ImagesSometimes you just have to take the leap and build your wings on the way down...
Reply:DSW, I appriceate the tips. I already cleaned up for the night. I'll try again tomorrow and keep a tighter pattern. I do have a short stick out and a slight angle up. It may be just me recognizing the different sounds and not sure if it's correct. I just want to do it the right way. Thanks
Reply:I've tried this, it does work well. Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:@ DSW - real world, have ran GMAW short-circuit vertical Up & Down on 1/8" with C25 (30CFH).   No prob for me run'n solid wire either Up or Down.  Up slays Down with overall fusion and builds proper technique when transitioning into SMAW.  No question.   Riddle me this: Why doesn't Lincoln's "The Procedure Handbook of Arc Welding" (14th ed, 1994) reference any templates for GMAW vertical Up on fillets for plate thickness between 10gauge and 1/4"?  In those thickness, Lincoln recommends down.  No way we're gun'a burn down, given no constraints, for 3/16" and 1/4" mild steel.  Certainly there must be WPS callouts that spec MIG'n 10 gauge using vertical Up?  Not talking school house rules.  Having trained at Lincoln, can tell you the recommendation on 10ga CRS was vertical Down (3F).Interested in hearing about spec/code work calling for MIG vertical Up on 1/8", or expressly forbidding vertical Down.  The journey continues.... "Discovery is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody else has thought" - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
Reply:I think it gets down to what the engineer of record specs out, / WPS. On the job us welders can't hardly make a move without engineer approval.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400