Professional Pipe Experts only. Old steam Pipe.

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I am headed back to a job in the morning, that I built a mechanical room in.Senior welder/Old timer weld has failed. Has no fix.He tried to weld a flange on 7, yes 7 inch pipe, that was a previous steam line, architect/engineers deemed it suitable for the new gas line.  Couldn't hold an arc, popping and toe nailing to the flange with 5p+. Now I have to fix it. The, "young buck that reads welding articles non stop"Ideas? Its a 1912 building, Denver was on steam power for quite some time. In that era.Cast iron, super corrosion?Fixes? Braze it?I am going to try to ac stick it, if it is magnetized. The owner of the mechanical company is a great friend of mine as well as the previous welder, which is his brother.14' PowerMig 210 MP13'Burntables 5x10 CNC Table14' SAE300 HE on a 12' Ram 4500 60 CA 4x4. Custom bed/bottles/reels.87' SA250d, 78 SA200,11' Ranger 250 GXT AC/DCThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 8112' Lincoln Precision Tig 22508' LN25
Reply:An old steam pipe?  To a gas line?  Why do you want to touch it?  How can an architect deem it suitable?
Reply:He went to college. Unlike us.Mid pressure gas in Denver runs at 1.5 to 2 psi. Where as steam back then would have been 50.14' PowerMig 210 MP13'Burntables 5x10 CNC Table14' SAE300 HE on a 12' Ram 4500 60 CA 4x4. Custom bed/bottles/reels.87' SA250d, 78 SA200,11' Ranger 250 GXT AC/DCThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 8112' Lincoln Precision Tig 22508' LN25
Reply:College, no college, a BA, BS or PhD, gas piping isn't the architects call.  His E&O won't cover it.A BSME would be different
Reply:I was being sarcastic. I also have a problem to solve, which you are not helping with.That being said, on this project, I guarantee the Architect or ME decided to reuse this old steam line and turn it into a gas line, Probably because of some stupid LEED certified inefficiency of our government. It sure as hell wasn't me.  I would also like to know what part a Bachelor of Arts, Bachelor of Science or a Simple doctorate (with no further definition) has to do with this at all. But I am just a dumb pipe welder after all. I dunno.14' PowerMig 210 MP13'Burntables 5x10 CNC Table14' SAE300 HE on a 12' Ram 4500 60 CA 4x4. Custom bed/bottles/reels.87' SA250d, 78 SA200,11' Ranger 250 GXT AC/DCThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 8112' Lincoln Precision Tig 22508' LN25
Reply:Times like this, I like to whip out my little JB welder and play with it Teach Ag Mech - Mike At Home:Lincoln Electric AC225Miller Challenger 172Gas AxeWork:eclectic bunch of 90's vintage blue boxes
Reply:Originally Posted by teachagmechTimes like this, I like to whip out my little JB welder and play with it
Reply:Originally Posted by TheJackalI was being sarcastic. I also have a problem to solve, which you are not helping with.
Reply:Originally Posted by Rock knockerSorry I can't supply you with a welding procedure to use on unknown pipe.Get the hint.
Reply:Back in the old days I had almost the same thing with 7'' pipe. I tossed out the flange idea and took a 8''x 6 '' weld reducer and cut it down to mate to the 7'' pipe . If you need to run 6'' just weld up another 8'' x 6'' to the 7'' x 8''.  Pipe to pipe is easier to control with old $hitty pipe. Try to clean up the inside and outside the best you can with a wire wheel.
Reply:I'm just curious as to what it is your working on that would require a 7" gas supply line. That's a substantial volume of gas that can flow through a pipe that size.
Reply:I was going to give some advise but I'm not a "professional pipe expert"... Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:As I see it, there are two ways you can approach this problem1 - Hire an outside lab/NDT company to come on-site and use an hand-held XRF machine to check the chemistry of the material.  Or you can cut a small piece of pipe off, assuming you have some material you can sacrifice, and get the chemistry checked in a lab.What you're looking for is the carbon content.  This and a few other elements determine the likelihood of the weld cracking and will give you some direction on proper pre-heat, interpass temp, and filler metal to use.  any decent outside metallurgy lab can help with Carbon Equivalent (CE) calculations.  With that information I or several others here on the forum can give you some solid recoomendations on how to proceed with welding or brazing.If the pipe is cast iron, then brazing is likely the best option.  Assuming this is a low pressure gas line, a solid braze joint will be plenty strong and avoid alot of hassles with cracking and joining mild steel piping to cast iron piping.If this is low pressure gas line then it's probably governed by the American Gas Association (AGA) codes, which refer to the National Fire Prevention Association (NFPA) codes, which likely refer to the American Society for Mechanical Engineers (ASME) Boiler and Pressure vessel codes.  Choke down this bowl of alphabet soup and figure out a welding or brazing procedure to follow based on the materials being welded and follow it.  Hopefully you don't need to take a welder qualification test for the weld; hopefully one of your existing certs will cover the work.Make the weld and pressure test the line, and check for leaks per the governing code.  For 1-2psi this shouldn't be a major hassle.  If you find any leaks fix them.2 - Take a wild *** guess at the proper welding procedure and filler metal.  Then grip it and rip it.  Then check for leaks.  If it leaks, try something else.  Repeat until it doesn't leak.My point in all of this is if you don't know what you're working on, then it's a total crap shoot.  So figure out what the materials are being welded and then proceed with caution.  Or, throw caution to the wind, and try every club in your bag until some thing works.I like the suggestion made by BD1 to cut an 8x6 reducer to fit that 7" pipe.  I would add that you'll want to check just how round that old pipe is before you start cutting.  Make sure it's not egged too badly or you'll have a mess of a fit up to deal with.  If it is egged, you might be able to tweak your reducer with a vise or some creative heat shrinking.Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:'' I like the suggestion made by BD1 to cut an 8x6 reducer to fit that 7" pipe. I would add that you'll want to check just how round that old pipe is before you start cutting. Make sure it's not egged too badly or you'll have a mess of a fit up to deal with. If it is egged, you might be able to tweak your reducer with a vise or some creative heat shrinking.''He could always stove pipe the reducer into the 7'' and mark or cut accordingly. Code would have to be verified if brazing is approved process for natural gas in his area.
Reply:Originally Posted by TheJackalCast iron...?
Reply:Just find the next joint or two upstream and see how they were welded. Should be fairly easy to figure out. I would probably put an expansion plug it the end and see if the rest of the system would hold a pressure test before I wasted much time on an old bastard pipe system.
Reply:They should find a new route with new and different pipe, because there is no way this is legal
Reply:Originally Posted by TheJackalI was being sarcastic. I also have a problem to solve, which you are not helping with.
Reply:Is this buried pipe or just run through a building ? if later cut off all the ells and run gas PVC inside it ,or smaller sized steel pipe . But if it is 102 year old steam pipe , and low pressure at that ,it will hold gas about as well as a tube sock.  other method would be custom made Dresser coupling  for 7" to 6"
Reply:I don't think you can run plastic gas pipe inside a building.  Vics typically aren't allowed for gas, I don't know about a Dresser.  Could use the old as a chase for new piping.
Reply:Is it really a good idea to use 100+ year old pipe for a gas line? How long is this century old pipe going to be expected to be in use after this job is done?
Reply:Originally Posted by BistineauIs it really a good idea to use 100+ year old pipe for a gas line? How long is this century old pipe going to be expected to be in use after this job is done?
Reply:Originally Posted by 7A749That kid looks possessed.
Reply:I used to due underground gas work back in the 70's  and we used to sleeve pvc into old gas lines running into buildings, also we used Dresser coupling a lot .  It would seem to me the logical thing would be to ask the local gas company .Also we don't  know if this is  an under ground supply or or a gas distribution system in a building. I know not much help on the quick fix ,which is what this sounds like they want.Cut corners and save on the cost  demo and the new install.gxbxcLast edited by gxbxc; 10-17-2014 at 05:37 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by BD1Back in the old days I had almost the same thing with 7'' pipe. I tossed out the flange idea and took a 8''x 6 '' weld reducer and cut it down to mate to the 7'' pipe . If you need to run 6'' just weld up another 8'' x 6'' to the 7'' x 8''.  Pipe to pipe is easier to control with old $hitty pipe. Try to clean up the inside and outside the best you can with a wire wheel.Does anyone know whats really flowing through that pipe?Last edited by Excalibur; 10-17-2014 at 08:59 PM.Lincoln Electric:Ranger GXT 250SA-200LN-25Pro MiG 256Pro Mig 180Esab CV 251Invertec 160Victor Torches”
Reply:Oh... and here's your sign.Lincoln Electric:Ranger GXT 250SA-200LN-25Pro MiG 256Pro Mig 180Esab CV 251Invertec 160Victor Torches”
Reply:Originally Posted by TheJackalThey misinformed me, it was actually turned into the heating water return.
Reply:Keep that plan for making flanges  on hold , if that was a single pipe low pressure steam and now hot water  system you will be back in two years or less running new pipe. I don't know what kind of water treatment they had on the steam plant ,but unless it was first class the piping is on it's last .gxbxc
Reply:Originally Posted by Rock knockerAttachment 877051
Reply:Na just two or three 600 hp Cleaver Brooks fire tube .
Reply:Originally Posted by BistineauWho's saying I was trying to help? I was just questioning to wisdom of using 100 year old 7" pipe, as a gas supply line. What's being hooked up that would NEED a 7" gas supply line? The most I could come up with would be a gas fired power generating plant.
Reply:What happens when you grind the pipe?  Does it look clean and bright? Are the sparks what you expect? Does the surface look good, not full of pinholes?I suspect that if it is steel there is some internal corrosion/chemical change causing the problems.I hate lawyers and this sounds like you need to get someone elses neck on the block if you can't find a good solution.
Reply:Too many stories in this story to really be a true story????  From gas to heating water return??......oh well, if it turns back to gas, we'll likely eventually see it on late night news
Reply:Originally Posted by Rock knockerThe OP was just mad at folks telling him not to turn 100 year old pipe into a gas line, he told me he just needed a solution
Reply:It was originally a steam line, I was told 1917, but who knows the validity of that, now it is part of the hot water heat system.14' PowerMig 210 MP13'Burntables 5x10 CNC Table14' SAE300 HE on a 12' Ram 4500 60 CA 4x4. Custom bed/bottles/reels.87' SA250d, 78 SA200,11' Ranger 250 GXT AC/DCThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 8112' Lincoln Precision Tig 22508' LN25
Reply:can we see some photos? Id like to see how you solved this problem.
Reply:Bump just cause this is so funny Originally Posted by TheJackal I guarantee the Architect or ME decided to reuse this old steam line and turn it into a gas line
Reply:Originally Posted by gxbxcNa just two or three 600 hp Cleaver Brooks fire tube .
Reply:Given the age and original service it is possible the pipe is genuine wrought iron.
Reply:Originally Posted by TheJackalIt was originally a steam line, I was told 1917, but who knows the validity of that, now it is part of the hot water heat system.
Reply:So it sounds like you don't really know what the pipe was used for in the past or what it will be used for in the future. Why do I get the feeling this "steam" pipe is just some old lead water pipe somebody tried to weld a steel flange onto using a coat hanger as filler metal.My "collection":Homemade Stick WelderVictor O/A TorchAC 225Ideal Arc 250HF 90 Amp Flux CoreHF Mig 170Solar 2020 Plasma CutterPower i-Mig 140EHarris O/A torchHF Dual Mig 131140STAlpha Tig 200x
Reply:I am sure a guy with a lathe can make a 7inch flange....Just sayin.Lincoln Power Mig 210MP MIGLincoln Power Mig 350MP - MIG and Push-PullLincoln TIG 300-300Lincoln Hobby-Weld 110v  Thanks JLAMESCK TIG TORCH, gas diffuser, pyrex cupThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 101My brain
Reply:I don`t think the availability/making of a 7" flange is the problem......
Reply:This problem was fixed over a year ago. Necro thread.
Reply:Maybe over a year old still funny.Millermatic 252millermatic 175miller 300 Thunderboltlincoln ranger 250smith torcheslots of bfh'sIf it dont fit get a bigger hammer
Reply:Originally Posted by TimmyTIGThis problem was fixed over a year ago
Reply:Whatever the case, I wanna see pix Expert Garage Hack....https://www.facebook.com/steven.webber.948
Reply:Originally Posted by Rock knockerActually not
Reply:Originally Posted by TimmyTIGOK, I made a mistake, you caught me. How long ago was it,  just shy of 11 months? Maybe he needs some more solutions...