oh look, another welding table plan...

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gonna build a new welding table.  the current one will be hacked up and be used for something else.  Here's the scoop on the new one:Top: 48x48x0.5 blanchard top.Frame: 2x2x0.125 tubing.my main concern with the .125 (1/8") walled tubing is its ability of holding up that half inch top.  Weighing in at 300 plus pounds, the top is no slouch.  3/16 walled tubing is considerably more expensive, and will be a deal breaker, so that's out.Here's my first design that I'll share.  its done in google sketchup pro, but i saved it in jpeg format. Please have a quick see and let me know where to add/change the bracing.  thanks in advance.those of you who might be interested in getting the original Sketchup file, PM me with your email address.Pic 1 is a side viewPic 2 is from the top, without the toppic 3 is looking up from belowgee, i guess i made the photos too small, the dimensions are difficult to read :/so, the top is 48x48.  there will be 4 inch over hang all around, so the frame is 40x40x 26 inches tall PLUS 6 inch casters.  over all height will be 32-34 inches (i havn't decided yet) instead of the ~36" indicated in pic 1. Attached ImagesLast edited by oxy moron; 07-22-2009 at 06:53 AM.
Reply:That 1/8" wall tube will have absolutely no problem holding the top or anything you wish to put on top of it.  I am questioning the usefullness of blanchard grinding 1/2" plate though.  I'd think you'd want to start with 1" plate if you're going to the trouble of having it ground.  Or, make the tubes that the plate sits on 2x4 on edge, weld them to the 1/2" plate, and then have the grinding done.  Otherwise I fear warpage will be an issue...
Reply:Tubular is right.  Warping will be a problem if you have the top ground then weld it to the tubing.  I would want a thinker top if I was gonna have it ground.  As far as the tubing goes you should not have any problem with the 1/8" wall being strong enough.  unless you plan on beating the fool out of it.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Nice design, but I would use a heavier top on it.MarkI haven't always been a nurse........Craftsman 12"x36" LatheEnco G-30B MillHobart Handler 175Lincoln WeldandPower 225 AC/DC G-7 CV/CCAdd a Foot Pedal to a Harbor Freight Chicago Electric 165A DC TIG PapaLion's Gate Build
Reply:I agree on the thicker top plate. You can bolt it on from below to avoid warping from welding. I used thin rubber pads under my 3/4" top plate to deaden the sound when you hammer on it.Cut an MGB and widened 11" C4 Corvette suspension and LT1 Chevrolet power & 6 spd. Pictures here:Part 1http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?13,7581Part 2http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?13,22422
Reply:What's the intended use of the table? You're having the top ground so I will assume it's to be used for setup work where accuracy is important. If that's the case you can reduce the center support to just a single 36" piece and that will support any load you could lift on and off the table. The number of pieces you have drawn in there now will make it more difficult to get a true plane for the top to sit on and as mentioned above you'll have issues with warping as you weld up all the connection joints. If the table is to be used as general purpose with the occasional hammering adjustments of things on top of it (in my case often) then I would not have the top ground and  maybe setup the center support with 2 perpendicular support (plus symbol). Another thing to consider is how to keep the table still on those casters. I have a beautiful steel top table (see pic below) on casters and it drives me nuts chasing the table around while I work. I'm making a pair of wheel chocks to solve that problem.Here is a pic of the lovely table I built out of 5 pieces of scrap 3/8 plate that I welded into a single piece and uses only 2 angle iron supports underneath. The table holds up fine with any load I've thrown and hammered on it so far -- It's a masterpiece work of art and anyone is welcome to the design  Attached Images
Reply:I would be more concerned about the castors holding up rather than the material you are planning on making the table out of.
Reply:Riceburner's point is well taken. I have another "idea" to hold the table still while working on it, but it's not designed out in my head yet. I'm sure someone has done a rocking cam mechanism to lift the table up off it's caster an onto steel "feet". Someday when I upgrade to an all metal table ( I know, why would I give up that beauty ) I plan to make a mechanism operated on a lever that rotates 4 cams near each caster and lifts the table about 1/2 and inch.
Reply:If you make a table with a substantial top it is going to be heavy. My table top is 4' x 4' x 3/4" and weighs almost 500 lbs and by the time you get legs under it it will be 600 lbs. You can put non-swivel steel casters under 2 legs and have screw levelers on the other 2 and it isn't going to go anywhere. I move mine around with a crane but you can make something like this to pick up the non-rolling side.  http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=37510JimCut an MGB and widened 11" C4 Corvette suspension and LT1 Chevrolet power & 6 spd. Pictures here:Part 1http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?13,7581Part 2http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?13,22422
Reply:OxyMoron,If you use the selection tool to select the dimension and look at "entity info" (drop down under the "window" heading), you can change the font.  Bump it up a few points and your dimensions will be nice and legible in your exported jpg.
Reply:alright, several issues has been brought up.  I'll try to clarify.  Thanks for all the input so far, I'm looking forward to more.Casters:  This is the casters I'm using:  http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?P...AKA=SR505-1670Its rated at 700lb each, and has brakes on it.  By my rough calculation, the top will be 325lbs, and that gives me a lot of head room, and i don't think the frame will be heavier then the top.  Since the casters are rated at 700lb each, for a total of 2800lb total, I think the casters should be able to handle it, and be able to stay put.Top warping:  yes, it will be my greatest fear, since this is all new metal which means major $$.  The blancharding alone cost almost $200.  With well placed one or two inch long welds, hopefully I'll avoid that.  Paul (ZTFab) will help me weld the top onto the frame, i think if he can't weld the top without warping it, I might as well stick with my current warped table.  I really like the idea of blancharding AFTER everything is welded together, I didn't know that was an option.  However, if i do that, it means i have to be super precise about building the table, otherwise, the 1/2 inch top might end up being 18gauge after being grinded   for something this big, i'm guessing the best i can do is +/- .125" (as in one corner might be 1/8" higher/lower then the others)Thickness of the top:  I'm surprised that 1/2 inch is still too thin.  1 inch? 3/4 inch top?  I thought I was going for overkill by choosing a half inch over quarter inch!  This table is STRICTLY for setting up, clamping, and tacking!  After everything is properly tacked, I will weld it on a beater table (my current table, with the warped top).  There will be no hammering on this table.  The only "hammering" it will see is with a small rubber mallet, to nudge pieces into place before the clamps are tightened.  I know i didn't mention this before, so, if i'm not "welding" and only tacking on it, will it still warp?Bracing:1. are the 45 degree gussets enough?  2. is the center support right under the top overkill? (markfuga)  I will only get those on true, perfect plane if several planets are perfectly aligned (and i missed the solar eclips already) so I would prefer a less complicated design, if it will be plenty strong.thanks all so far, I'll revise the drawing and repost.... keep those comments coming
Reply:OK, version 1.1.  new center support, less complicated, easier to make.first one is top view.  the spaces will be four 17x17, instead of 6 11x11 spaces.also, the casters will have locks, i couldnt find a lockable caster online.thanks foxhole for the tip on changing the font size. Attached ImagesLast edited by oxy moron; 07-22-2009 at 03:20 PM.
Reply:If you use the table in the basement of a 12+ story building, I can foresee that if the building collapses the safest place to be maybe under your welding table.
Reply:Reply #6 A WOOD sub frame for a welding table??  Is that table going to have sheet metal sides to prevent welding slag/sparks from setting it on fire? Some sheet metal sides would prevent sparks from setting the table on fire. Sheet metal doors added would make a nice cabinet storage area for welding supplies.Sorry had to add that as a safety issue.Back to original post! The  design would work but I suggest a heavier tubing than .125 especially if you plan to do any heavy pounding and fabrication on top of it.Co-Own CNC shop:Miller :1251 plasma cutter, MaxStar 700 TIG/Stick, & XMT 456 Multiprocess Welder.&  2 Hypertherm HPR260's Plasma CutterSorry I had a bad stroke but now I am back.
Reply:>> Reply #6 A WOOD sub frame for a welding table?? Is that table going to have sheet metal sides to prevent welding slag/sparks from setting it on fire?Ah, you do like the design  It's a throw together table from scrap that was lying around that day. It's my "beat on it table" and yes, occasionally weld on it too when necessary. Not too derail this thread, the point was to illustrate that even a piece of art work like that can hold alot of weight (one of oxy's concerns). His original design for the table top support was too complex and definitely overkill for his tables intended purpose.Oxy, another thought for your table top is to have grid lines cut into after the grinding is done. I saw this in another thread on this site and it struck me as an awesome idea. The lines were cut maybe 1/32 into the top for doing setup work, getting the 90 and 45 degrees without having to use a square and protractor. If I recall the grid didn't cover the whole table top, maybe just a quarter, in your case a 2'x2' area.
Reply:I'm sure putting grid lines on the top is very useful.  precision grinding is expensive enough, im sure machining stuff like that would cost a grip too.  I do like the idea, maybe I'll just use a grease pen or something and just draw on the top, if i don't need it, or make a mistake, just erase it.
Reply:Actually I was talking about just welding all the tubes that are in the flat plane that contacts the plate prior to grinding.  In other words, weld the top 7 tubes together, and then weld the top to the resulting frame.  Have that assembly ground, then add the legs and rest of the frame when you get it back.  I still wouldn't use a lot of weld on the plate if you go this route.
Reply:I thought of that (top of frame welded to top first, then grind, then add the leg portion).welding the top is a catch 22, isn't it?  too many welds.... top warps.  too little weld... top comes loose and warps.  i'm never gonna win
Reply:Im confused, why are you getting it ground?  I know why people get tables ground, but from what you said it was going to be used for it sounds like a regular table top will be fine.  I would say skip the grinding and put the money into making it heavier, or drilling and tapping holes into the top to aid in clamping parts down.Does your supplier have cold rolled plate in 1/2"-1" thicknesses?  That might be the best option yet.  You can be sure the top will be flat enough for all most applications, but it probably wont cost near as much.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:alright, what in the world are you guys welding that warrants 3/4 or thicker top?  I'm just a hobbyist, the thickest stuff my welder can weld is 1/4 inch anyway.  If i'm careful about moving around and welding on different spots on the 1/2 inch table, is that going to be enough?another question i have is, how flat is flat?  the supplier i spoke with says that they'll only grind off .050 of an inch.  Does that means, if i didn't get it blanchard, the top plate would only be .050 off at the most?   If i didnt have it blanchard grinded, i believe i can afford an one inch top.  650lbs.  how flat will that be after they cut it from a larger plate?i'm totally confused now.  is no grinding flat enough? thicker is better then flatter?  Markfuga's table is 3/8, yet it seems to be working out perfectly fine for him (despite those arty fartsy legs  )Last edited by oxy moron; 07-22-2009 at 09:19 PM.
Reply:Oxy, most plate will be flat enough for 99.9% of layout and fabrication work without having a thing done to it.  I have four welding tables that I use ranging from 3x3 to 5x8, and none or which are ground.  I've never had a problem....I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:From a barn fabricator going out of business I bought for $50 a used 6 legged welding table with a  4' X 8' X 1/2" top, galvanized one side.  The frame is primarily 2" X 3/16" sq. tube around the perimeter with a single crosspiece in the center.  I added casters at the corners and screw-jack levelers on the center legs.  At this time I am trying to correct the warpage induced by the 1" tack welds (40 or so of them, mostly around the perimeter) the barn fabricator used to secure the top to the frame.  There is a  .20"+ hump in the center that might have been tolerable making barn panels, but which drives me crazy.  I have gotten some advice and am busy cutting out the welds while trying to minimize heat input beneath the table top.  I will fix this thing eventually.My advice, if you intend to weld the top to the frame, is to go with a heavier top that will better resist warping.  If you stick with a 1/2" top, do minimal tacking.  Use just a few short tacks, widely spaced with cooling time between welds; only enough to keep the top from sliding around.  Believe me, based on what I've seen on my table, don't depend on a true frame to prevent warpage in a 1/2" steel top; the steel top will take the frame along for the ride when and if it warps.One guy I heard from used what I think might be a good idea on his welding table.  He tacked hex nuts beneath his 3/8" top at key locations.  Using bolts through the frame into the nuts and shims or spacers to hold the top above the frame at key locations, he created a top that can be re-leveled when it warps, which it will inevitably.The other thought I had about your design was, save yourself some expense by eliminating the cross bracing beneath the top.  That 1/2" top will be stronger by itself than any tube frame bracing you can build. Also, a blanchard top might be of some value if you had a 3/4" or thicker plate, but not for 1/2".  I would stick with regular plate.  My .$.02.ScottMiller XMT 350 CC/CV w/gas solenoid opt.Miller S-22A wirefeederBernard 400A "Q" gunMiller Spoolmatic 30A / WC-24C-K 200A torch/gas lensWeldcraft WC-18 watercooled torchHypertherm Powermax 30Victor O/A
Reply:John the 1/2" plate is fine for anything that you will ever do. .625", .750", etc are all nice but completely unnecessary for you.The key to keeping it flat is all in the base of the table. Warped base, warped top.Keep all of your cuts square and make sure they have full contact with no gaps when you tack weld them. Tack, check for square, tack, check for square. Weld the sides, then the outside, then the inside. Make sure the inside welds are the last you do.Once the base is built, it will only take a couple of small stitch welds to hold the top plate down. You have worked on my table and it is 5'x4'x.5" on 2"x2"x.120 base. It has no where near the support that your drawing shows and it's served me well for 6 years.If you have any doubts about the casters that I linked you to, come by my shop and look at my other welding table which is 2'x5'x1" Blanchard ground with the same casters. It rolls like a boat floats on water and the brakes hold well enough to work on anything I've ever done on it.http://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:I have  a 1/4 20 in each corner of my table to hold the .500" top down. Its been milled for flatness and I dont think that it has been warped any by the blind holes with the bolts in them.  Where is the top going to go anyway?
Reply:I have built about 20 welding shop tables over the years and for some reason remember having a conversation with a steel supplier about 1/2 and under being less flat than 3/4 and up due to how its processed. Does this sound familiar to anyone? I have had good luck using 3/4 and 1' and not welding it down but using bolts to level it at the top of the table, that way you can tune it in with a wire and some gauge blocks.Originally Posted by Eric CI have built about 20 welding shop tables over the years and for some reason remember having a conversation with a steel supplier about 1/2 and under being less flat than 3/4 and up due to how its processed. Does this sound familiar to anyone? I have had good luck using 3/4 and 1' and not welding it down but using bolts to level it at the top of the table, that way you can tune it in with a wire and some gauge blocks.
Reply:alright.  I just canceled the blancharding, just in time too.  at my current skill level, that's a luxury that's just not necessary now.now my main question for this tread was whether the frame im building is strong enough, and it seems that it is.  how small can i make those gusset pieces and have the frame still strong enough for the half inch top?
Reply:You probably don't need the gussets, if you were making out of wood and nailed together they would be a good idea, but since you are making the frame from steel that is welded together with sufficient bracing around the bottom of the legs I bet it is not necessary. I would even (and did) leave one of the bottom rails off so you can pull a chair up to the table. Remember not to weld on places the will pull the legs together.I will take a couple pics of mine, I think it is allot like what you are thinking of building. s.r.Last edited by riceburner; 07-23-2009 at 02:06 PM.
Reply:Riceburner, nice suggestions, but seriously.. wood?? who does that I was going to say the top gussets could be reduced to using 4 inch squares of flat plate cut diagonally into triangles and welded up into the corners. The length of the legs from top to the lower horizontal supports will probably be around 20" (assuming the horizontals are about 4" up as drawn) which isn't calling out for lateral support. Putting even a small 4" triangle gusset reduces the unsupported leg length further to about 16" to the horizontal supports.
Reply:The top is .500" 2' x 3', and as noted earlier in order to avoid warpage and keep the top flat it is bolted down.To address the question on gussets, if you look at mine I dont have gussets, but in a couple of the corners I do have a receiver, I guess you could call that a gussett, with a reciever though you have made your table more expandable.You will also note the retractable wheel that is lowered with a cam and lever, when it is not engaged the table sits on the legs. Attached ImagesLast edited by riceburner; 07-23-2009 at 02:41 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by oxy moronalright.  I just canceled the blancharding, just in time too.  at my current skill level, that's a luxury that's just not necessary now.now my main question for this tread was whether the frame im building is strong enough, and it seems that it is.  how small can i make those gusset pieces and have the frame still strong enough for the half inch top?
Reply:Is P&O done AFTER the plate is cut?  plate is cut already, is still at the grinding facility in LA (they know not to grind it).  how much does P&O cost?DANG!!!! Bling Bling gussets, hell yeah, I'm in
Reply:which one of these designs is strongest?  gussets will come laterI've looked at a lot of pics of welding tables and the first two designs seem very common.  the third one, not so much.  when i make small side tables, i do use the third design, because looks less "industrial" and more wife-friendly.  for welding table, wife-friendly is not necessary, so i'll make whichever is the strongest. Attached ImagesLast edited by oxy moron; 07-23-2009 at 04:16 PM.
Reply:Oxy,You're beating yourself to death here.  All are equally strong, as all will buckle under the same load; which is far more than you'll ever set on top of this table.I'd select option 2 as it seems to me that this requires the fewest number of, and easiest, welds.Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:thanks all for sticking with me on this table project.  I'm such a post-whore i know i'm beating this to death.  But its only because of my inexperience.  I did forget to ask, in addition to strength, which one will be the easiest to make.  I'm such a n00bMark, 4 inch squares cut into two triangles sounds like a great idea and i can get them for a buck each (4"x4"x.25).  what thickness were you thinking of?  i'm asking because you said "sheet metal"is this what you're thinking of? Attached Images
Reply:Put a receiver in the corner.
Reply:Originally Posted by riceburnerPut a receiver in the corner.
Reply:#1 will be easiest IMO, but your putting way to much throught into this.  You could set a car on top of the table with any of those designs.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:As long as you keep your fillet weld legs equal and tied in good the gussets are not required for stability.  The ratio of the height to width is the primary issue to worry about with tables with wide overhangs and lightweight frames, since you are moving your center of gravity towards the edge.  By contrast if you have alot of frame weight below the top, the CG will shift less, thus keeping the overturning moment within limits.  Your drawings do look good though... easy to spend more time researching in your first projects, but later you'll just start cutting steel with a sketch off the back side of a restaurant receipt.
Reply:I am confused about this:Your welder setting should be based on the thinnest piece of metal to be welded. Since the OP plans on using 1/8'' square tubing, his welder should be set around 130-140 amps. I am having a hard time imagining a few tack welds at that low amperage warping a 1/2'' plate with THAT much surface area.Can anyone clarify?Last edited by KarateBoy; 07-23-2009 at 10:20 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by KarateBoyI am confused about this:Your welder setting should be based on the thinnest piece of metal to be welded. Since the OP plans on using 1/8'' square tubing, his welder should be set around 130-140 amps. I am having a hard time imagining a few tack welds at that low amperage warping a 1/2'' plate with THAT much surface area.Can anyone clarify?
Reply:OxyDid you consider buying your metal from a scrap or surplus dealer? If you can find what you need the cost is 1/4 what you pay new. You can also check with local heavy fab shops for remnants you could buy for pennies on the $. They will only get $0.03 per lb when they sell it for scrap. Some of it may take some paint or rust removal but definitely worth it if you are on a budgetCut an MGB and widened 11" C4 Corvette suspension and LT1 Chevrolet power & 6 spd. Pictures here:Part 1http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?13,7581Part 2http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?13,22422
Reply:I dont know of any surplus or scrap dealers in my area.  this is a special hook up from a friend.  maybe metal in my area (so cal) is just high dollar.
Reply:Originally Posted by oxy moronI dont know of any surplus or scrap dealers in my area.  this is a special hook up from a friend.  maybe metal in my area (so cal) is just high dollar.
Reply:lets see4x4x.5 plate is 326lb2x2x.125 tubing is 191lbtotal weight 517lbstotal charge is $305 delivered$0.59 a lbIts the first time i ordered from this supplier.  They don't know me, and I'm not a shop, just a hobbyist.  Price sounds about right to you guys?
Reply:All depends on how they charge. In many cases I find it cheaper to just get a whole length and not pay cut and waste charges. One of the places I deal with charges by the cut and bumps the price / lb if you get less than a full length. I learned this the hard way when I had them cut some lengths in half for transport. Guy wrote it up as partial cut pieces rather than the full lengths plus the cost to cut then in half. Took a bit to get that straightened out. Now I come prepared. I'll just grab the whole lengths and whack them myself before I load.In other cases, like that 1/2" plate it's probably cheaper as a cut piece than as a full sheet. Depends on how they price the materials.
Reply:Originally Posted by oxy moronlets see4x4x.5 plate is 326lb2x2x.125 tubing is 191lbtotal weight 517lbstotal charge is $305 delivered$0.59 a lbIts the first time i ordered from this supplier.  They don't know me, and I'm not a shop, just a hobbyist.  Price sounds about right to you guys?
Reply:Originally Posted by Jim StabeSounds good to me. We don't get that kind of pricing on new material in San Diego.
Reply:Originally Posted by ZTFabIt's all about who you know....right, oxy?
Reply:good thing you hooked it up there ZT, cuz my table might end up looking like this, and need to buy another set of material for a second build   Attached Images