welding certification for stairs

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Hello everyone,                      first time posting! I have a question/possible problem.I'm located in Québec, Canada, and have been making stairs and handrails when customers asked, but demand is growing. I just heard that to make stairs, you're supposed to have engineer drawings, and the shop is supposed to be certified CWB to weld it.Is it true? If so, just for commercial, or residential too?I checked, and it seems like certification is a lot of $$$, and a lot of paperwork. If its mandatory, is it worth it?Thank you
Reply:You do need to be CWB structural certified to weld stairs, hand rail and ladders. Industrial and commercial for sure. I'm not sure about residential however.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:Has being certified been a good thing for you/your company?And A; is the procees very complicated?      B;On a day-to-day basis, is it a PITA?Thanks
Reply:To get your shop certified, the CWB will have to come do an inspection to ensure everything is up to welding code. You will then have to get your welding personnel certified by passing the tests. It all costs money. In the end, you will be able to advertise your business as being CWB certified. That in itself can attract you more business.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:I once watched a mobile welder replace two treads on some apartment stairs and it looked like the guy was welding precast concrete to the metal stringers. Of course he didn't tell me about the obscured metal plates on each end.
Reply:rikduk - "Has being certified been a good thing for you/your company"?    I know a guy who has a shop w/ a couple hired guys, been in business for 35+ years.     They build and repair Ag/Industrial equip, some stainless, hydraulics, gear boxes, and modify new implements to fit on trucks etc.    The owner is a natural engineer in his head.    He himself is a very good welder, and no doubt in my mind he could pass the tests to become certed.     He has never gotten certified, and doesn't want to be.     He tells me that if he or his employees were certified, his insurance policy would be effected and higher cost.    My guess, is the ins sees it as a lic. to do things that have a higher liability.
Reply:On some jobs even if you were pipe certified you needed certification just to weld up brackets for pipe hangers.
Reply:I am sure that no insurance company would want to insure a welding shop where the shop and employees were not certified to do the work they were doing.  The CWB certification is a minimum and covers structural welding.  Certification for pipe work or pressure vessels requires additional certifications. I would get the shop and your employees certified or you would be wide open to being sued, should anything you built ever fails whether it is your fault or not.The heavy equipment repair/mod shop you mentioned may not fit neatly under the CWB certification but again if he was ever sued, it would be something in his defence to say his shop and employees were inspected, tested and certified to do welding work."The reason we are here is that we are not all there"SA 200Idealarc TM 300 300MM 200MM 25130a SpoolgunPrecision Tig 375Invertec V350 ProSC-32 CS 12 Wire FeederOxweld/Purox O/AArcAirHypertherm Powermax 85LN25
Reply:It wouldn't hurt to brush up on these tests (4 in total for all position) before you pay a welding inspector to come and test you and/or your shop employees.A quick google search will show you what is required on the tests for material selection, setup etc. (if you don't already know)Also - depending on what you usually use for electrodes, the inspector can usually test you on that specific rod, as some test facilities will only have an agreement for 5/32, 1/8" etc.  Kind of a different animal if you are used to using 3/32", and the testor requires 5/32" - seen a LOT of failures because of this.Just tryin to help!
Reply:Originally Posted by weldypantsIt wouldn't hurt to brush up on these tests (4 in total for all position) before you pay a welding inspector to come and test you and/or your shop employees.A quick google search will show you what is required on the tests for material selection, setup etc. (if you don't already know)Also - depending on what you usually use for electrodes, the inspector can usually test you on that specific rod, as some test facilities will only have an agreement for 5/32, 1/8" etc.  Kind of a different animal if you are used to using 3/32", and the testor requires 5/32" - seen a LOT of failures because of this.Just tryin to help!
Reply:Originally Posted by snoeproeThe shop itself has to become a CWB qualified shop/test facility before the test inspector from the CWB will come there to test the welders working at the site.The CWB structural stick test must be done with 1/8" 7018 electrodes.
Reply:I wouldn't want to weld the horizontal structural test plate with 5/32. The gap is too small in my opinion to get both root passes in there cleanly with 5/32. 3/32 would mean a lot of restarts which can create problems especially with your root passes on the vertical up plate. Not that it couldn't be done, but part of the key to passing these tests is rod management and minimizing your stops and restarts.I have rod management down to a science passing these structural CWB tests with 1/8 electrodes. I've tested in multiple different facilities. I'd hate to have to use some thing other than 1/8.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:Originally Posted by rikdukHello everyone,                      first time posting! I have a question/possible problem.I'm located in Québec, Canada, and have been making stairs and handrails when customers asked, but demand is growing. I just heard that to make stairs, you're supposed to have engineer drawings, and the shop is supposed to be certified CWB to weld it.Is it true? If so, just for commercial, or residential too?I checked, and it seems like certification is a lot of $$$, and a lot of paperwork. If its mandatory, is it worth it?Thank you
Reply:I believe the CWB will require one or two personal (depending on the amount of personal at the shop) employed at the shop they are certifying to take the welding supervising training. It's part of having the shop certified.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:Maybe you can find someone else with a shop certification and work something out to get qualified to work under their cert. Especially if it's just you and a couple other guys at most.Last edited by TheBFA; 10-26-2015 at 02:49 AM.
Reply:Being sued is my last concern right now. The problem is we do a lot of custom work, modifications, etc. So i would have to pull out a welding procedure for every different weld on a given job?I dont mind passing the supervisor exam, thats not the problem. As of now, the move would be too costly for the jobs i do, but it may also be a good step to get more profitable jobs.Technically, if i work with someone else who has a certified shop, dont my welders need to pass the test too?
Reply:Originally Posted by rikdukBeing sued is my last concern right now. The problem is we do a lot of custom work, modifications, etc. So i would have to pull out a welding procedure for every different weld on a given job?I dont mind passing the supervisor exam, thats not the problem. As of now, the move would be too costly for the jobs i do, but it may also be a good step to get more profitable jobs.Technically, if i work with someone else who has a certified shop, dont my welders need to pass the test too?
Reply:A shop has to have a CWB supervisor in order to be certified. Then the welders need to pass the CWB certifications. I believe the shop has to pay to keep their CWB status. The CWB never used to have to be enforced but decided structural should require some kind of certification. It's also a money grab. In Alberta you need to be a licensed welder or registered apprentice in order to work as a welder (some people aren't). What's kind of dumb is that journeyman welder who went through the apprenticeship isn't qualified without passing the CWB test. Even stranger is a B Pressure welder also isn't qualified. The first year apprentice test is exactly the same as the flat position CWB test but CWB doesn't recognize it and requires you to pay $100 (not sure what it is now) to do the same test through them. A journeyman ticket doesn't mean much anymore and it should. What's really dumb is that a journeyman welder with years of experience isn't qualified for structural without passing the CWB test(s) but anyone who passes the CWB test is qualified without having to even be a registered apprentice. I saw some CWB certified welders do some pretty crappy work on platforms and hand rails that would never has passed any kind of test. A lot of the welds were done down hill. It's not like the railings were ever going to get stressed to the point of breaking but there usually isn't a lot of testing on jobs that still require the CWB certification. Had I have been an inspector, I would have had the welds ground out and redone. They were crappy, especially for a union shop that did the work. Pressure welding on the other hand requires a journeyman ticket then a pressure ticket that is renewed every 2 years and most all welds are X-rayed or tested in other ways to ensure they meet the code. CWB has all these tests $$$ and a lot of welds are never even tested. Kind of a farce if you ask me.
Reply:I've welded a pile of structural with the ironworkers in Alberta. Every structural weld I put in had to pass a visual inspection from a CWI. There were a few that were UT'd but for the most part, they just had to pass a visual. Hand rail and kick plate were not inspected at all. Alberta is the only province in Canada that requires all welders to have journeyman or apprentice status along with CWB or B pressure. The other provinces just require a passed weld test like CWB or TSSA pipe to do code welding.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:I've done commercial stairs, playgrounds and huge watersides. I just had the engineers mark the drawings certified or shop experienced on the plans. I have never ran into issues, but I may be overlooking something.  No one ever inspected actual welds, just ADA rules and other code requirements. I've been working in a shop for 35+ years and never had a Cert.
Reply:Blackbart, where are you located?Theres a list of certified companies on the CWB website, and a company i know isnt there, and they have been doing stairs for years, including in hospitals.
Reply:Originally Posted by rikdukBlackbart, where are you located?Theres a list of certified companies on the CWB website, and a company i know isnt there, and they have been doing stairs for years, including in hospitals.
Reply:Originally Posted by snoeproeI've welded a pile of structural with the ironworkers in Alberta. Every structural weld I put in had to pass a visual inspection from a CWI. There were a few that were UT'd but for the most part, they just had to pass a visual. Hand rail and kick plate were not inspected at all. Alberta is the only province in Canada that requires all welders to have journeyman or apprentice status along with CWB or B pressure. The other provinces just require a passed weld test like CWB or TSSA pipe to do code welding.
Reply:We can thank Alberta for the red seal. The red seal drained me of $500 by the time I was done. Did it make me a better welder? It simply proved to others that I understand the theory of the trade. I've worked with plenty of first year apprentice ironworkers and I've never met one that could weld decent let alone pass an all position CWB. In Alberta, a first year apprentice can't weld nor can they take a CWB test. A Jman welder on the other hand, who is banking hours as an apprentice Ironworker can weld all they want. He/she is also earning the Jman rate of pay throughout it all.Again, it's Alberta who has separated the ironworkers from the welders by trade. It's not like that in the other provinces.Last edited by snoeproe; 10-31-2015 at 10:40 PM.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720