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So, long story short I was initially looking at the multimatic 200 or powermig 210 multiprocess machine to take care of our rapidly increasing weld projects around the homestead. Now after much deliberation and considering the remote nature and unstable power of where we live we have decided to get a dedicated stick machine, mig machine and a portable generator. We have had our power go out many times here and my two smaller honda generators cannot quite hack it. I am thinking the 211 millermatic (newer inverter unit) and the 150s maxstar portable stick welder. I need to be portable on the homestead and if I need more major welding work I can reluctantly borrow my dads gas driven miller. I am having trouble sizing the generator and cannot afford for this to be messed up and have something not work. I have read through countless threads on here and other forums and see some conflicting information so here is what I was looking at generator wise. Please check my rationale and give a nod if you would. The millermatic 211 is showing an input of:120 V: 24.3 A, 60 Hz, single-phase 240 V: 16.6 A, 60 Hz, single-phaseIs the above the max? I have read that under initial load it could pull more then that...if so how much more? At 240 volt it is saying that input is equivalent to 3984 watts but I know from reading that you don't want the generator numbers to be on the edge of that but how much more does a guy need to go? Some guys including ones on this forum in other posts advise to go double that and I think that seems excessive but again I do not want to be undersized but don't want to spend more and have a much larger and more cumbersome generator than needed. The Maxstar 150s is showing the following230 VAC20150 A100 A at 24.0 VDC, 100% duty cycle13.1 amps150 A at 26.0 VDC, 30% duty cycle21.6 AmpsSo in essence 21.6 amps x 240 giving me 5184 watts.How much do I need to oversize here?I was looking at the generac and North star generators in the less then 5% Total Harmonic Distortion to give clean power to my sensitive appliances as well as the inverter welders. I really like the size and price of this North Star 8000 surge 6600 running unit but am worried that it may be cutting it too close only having 1500 running watts in reserve especially for the 150s machine. I LIVE AT 5000 FEET ELEVATION AND AM ALSO WORRIED ON HOW MUCH WATTAGE I LOSE BEING AT ELEVATION AND CANNOT FIND A GOOD ANSWER ON THAT. http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...4517_200464517Next size up is the 10000 surge 8500 running North star but it is almost 300 more and the big bummer is it is 100 pounds heavier tipping the scales at 300 pounds which is going to be a bear to move around solo and to get in the back of my truck using ramps. http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...7367_200467367Last but not least is the Generac 8000/10000 unit that is 270 pounds but is nearly 500 more then the smaller North star and I really like the Honda engines on the North stars. http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorpora...e.pdf?ext=.pdfThe Generac dos also have a smaller xp unit only 100 watts off of the first mentioned North Star for about the same price. I would love to go with one of the two smaller units for weight, portability, and cost but is that cutting it too close...especially with me living at altitude?Thanks in advance for any help on this. I am stuck at home with the flu and today is my research day
Reply:Hey, TDog78, sorry to hear you're not feeling well.I've read that inverters are sensitive to power, and require "clean power" or else they get fried. I clicked on that first Northern Tool link, and on that one the total harmonic distortion is less than 5%- that one counts as clean power. The less distortion the better.Edit- read your post fully, and see that you knew that already, my bad.I've never heard of wattage loss due to elevation... are you thinking of horsepower loss in the generator, due to less oxygen at altitude?
Reply:Originally Posted by FreneticHey, TDog78, sorry to hear you're not feeling well.I've read that inverters are sensitive to power, and require "clean power" or else they get fried. I clicked on that first Northern Tool link, and on that one the total harmonic distortion is less than 5%- that one counts as clean power. The less distortion the better.Edit- read your post fully, and see that you knew that already, my bad.I've never heard of wattage loss due to elevation... are you thinking of horsepower loss in the generator, due to less oxygen at altitude?
Reply:go the biggest you can afford, just mount a small atv winch in the back of the bed of your truck, cheap from harbor freight, and just pull the genny up the ramps, and anything else you need to load in the back, much better on the muscles than humping it up...Of all the things I lost I miss my mind the most...I know just enough about everything to be dangerous......You cant cure stupid..only kill it...
Reply:Originally Posted by roadkillbobbgo the biggest you can afford, just mount a small atv winch in the back of the bed of your truck, cheap from harbor freight, and just pull the genny up the ramps, and anything else you need to load in the back, much better on the muscles than humping it up...
Reply:just to make sure mabe call northern or go online to live chat and see what the loss of power with high altitude there is and if you can adjust the carbs to compensate for that, but it looks like they have enough to do the job even with a percent of power drop..I dont know if they make a surge protector large enough to help protect the welder from any spikes or dips in power so you dont kill the inverters...Of all the things I lost I miss my mind the most...I know just enough about everything to be dangerous......You cant cure stupid..only kill it...
Reply:I would look for a low hours used trailblazer . A gen plus the maxstar is going to be in the same price range. Two years ago I picked up a trailblazer 302EFI with 16 hrs on it for $3400. The 211 mig can be plugged into the trailblazer if needed. I run my inverter plasma,and mig off of mine quite a bit. Mine is a 2011 model. I have also run my Thermal Arc 250GTS off of a 5500 watt harbor freight gen for hours and had no problems. Remember that those amp ratings you are looking at are at wide open on the welders.
Reply:Originally Posted by thegaryI would look for a low hours used trailblazer . A gen plus the maxstar is going to be in the same price range. Two years ago I picked up a trailblazer 302EFI with 16 hrs on it for $3400. The 211 mig can be plugged into the trailblazer if needed. I run my inverter plasma,and mig off of mine quite a bit. Mine is a 2011 model. I have also run my Thermal Arc 250GTS off of a 5500 watt harbor freight gen for hours and had no problems. Remember that those amp ratings you are looking at are at wide open on the welders.
Reply:My dad has the XP series you posted a link to above, its is a great machine.I have not had a need to run a welder from it, but have run a small air compressor off of it as well as saws at the same time on a construction site.From what I have experienced in 6 years I would not fret about the engine in the Generac not being a Honda, so far the engine has been trouble free.There was an electrical glitch 6 years ago but their customer service is great and they sent out the replacement panel and parts.
Reply:Originally Posted by TDog78So the 13 and 21.6 amps I posted above are the max either unit will pull?I would love a low hour used bobcat or trailblazer but I have literally looked for a year and have yet to see one come up that was not a scam or they wanted all but full retail. I would only do low hour as very few people take are of their machines like I do and I have inherited too many problems.
Reply:I know one long time member here rubs alll his mobile welding business on the Ridgid 8k continuous generator and is very happy with that setupTiger Sales: AHP Distributor www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P, Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma. For Sale: Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun. Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Just sat down for coffee. When I went to search 'new posts' the search feature only showed the first half of your heading:"Wife Wants Me To Change Direction..."Thought it was another "EX" thread!Sorry I'm not knowledgeable enough on generators to contribute. Carry on. Terry
Reply:I have a Maxstar 140STR and it runs fine off my Troy Bilt generator 8500w-10500 surge output. SteveLincoln SA200 (1966 Redface)Lincoln IdealArc 250Steve1990 Miller Dialarc 2501993 Miller Maxstar 140 STR2015 Lincoln MP2101966 Lincoln SA200 Redface
Reply:Originally Posted by thegaryNo there is a start surge . What I am saying is that the 21.6 amps is constant full draw at wide open. The start surge is probably 10-20% higher but that surge will only be for a second or 2. If you ran the maxstar at lower amps like say 100 the constant amp load and the surge amp load will be lower. Most gens have a surge rating and a constant rating. Like my HF 5500 gen has a surge rating of 6500 watts and a constant rating of 5500 watts. Some manufactures rate their gens by the surge to make the buyer believe he is getting more than he is. If you go by the constant rating you will do well. The gen surge rating should cover any start surge you will get with an inverter. Now if you were going to start a large motor with the gen the surge rating might not be enough since motor start surges last for up to 10 seconds. The motor must reach full rpm before the surge is gone. On my Thermal arc inverter I can run it on my 5500 watt gen but not at wide open amps. It will draw 50 amps at full tilt. I can run it just fine at about 120 amps but if I increase to say 140 amps the gen will stall because the draw is higher than the gen will produce. I can tell when I get too close to the capacity of the gen because the motor starts to mis a little. I f that happens I lower my welding amps and it runs fine. Now do not let the gen stall because it could damage the inverter or the gen.
Reply:Have you run it on anything smaller, like a lot smaller? Originally Posted by SparkieI have a Maxstar 140STR and it runs fine off my Troy Bilt generator 8500w-10500 surge output. SteveLincoln SA200 (1966 Redface)Lincoln IdealArc 250
Reply:Originally Posted by Lis2323Just sat down for coffee. When I went to search 'new posts' the search feature only showed the first half of your heading:"Wife Wants Me To Change Direction..."Thought it was another "EX" thread!Sorry I'm not knowledgeable enough on generators to contribute. Carry on. Terry
Reply:hmmmm.... I guess that explains the request to change directions....250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC StickF-225 amp Forney AC Stick230 amp Sears AC StickLincoln 180C MIGVictor Medalist 350 O/ACut 50 PlasmaLes
Reply:Originally Posted by TDog78So in essence if I take the maxstar with higher draw at 21.6 add 15 percent for surge it would put me at 24.84 so lets just call it 25. 25 amps times 240 volts takes me to 6000 watts. (should I be multiplying by 240 or 220?) Both of the smaller gen sets that I quoted were 6600 and 6500 with a surge around 8000. That only gives me a buffer of 5-600 watts but that is at a 15 percent surge. To me this works unless my math is wrong or I am missing something. Even at a 20 percent surge it should be under the constant running output of both small gen sets. I did speak to north star as one of the posts mentioned and other then re-jetting above 5000 feet he said there should not be any real measurable loss. I am actually at 4600 feet so hopefully should be gtg. I understand the other posters on buying the biggest set possible but I really do want to save the weight and when combined with my other two smaller generators it would be more than enough for my emergency needs...around 12,000 continuous. In essence I want enough to get the job done without having to worry and be able to run at full tilt but I (for once) don't want overkill here.
Reply:Originally Posted by thegaryI would use 220 to be safe. Some gens produce 240 some 220. The amp draw will be higher on 220 so that is what I would use. You will find that transformer welding machines do not run well on gen sets. So I would not even go there. keep with the inverters and there is no problem
Reply:I'd have to see the Miller specs on those machines, but usually the power draw shown is for the rating given. So on the Maxstar 150 where it lists 30% @ 150 amps, that's probably max draw since I believe that machine maxes at 150 amps. However on the mig, it lists 150 amps @ 30% for the listed amp draw. However the machine maxes out at 210 amps, so max draw is probably slightly higher.I have a copy of the MM211 manual and my copy lists 24.3amps @ 230v as draw at 150 amps @30% duty cycle. Not sure on your numbers....No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:The problem with transformer machines is that they draw significantly more amperage than a comparable inverter. For instance I just sold an old miller 250 welder. For max amps it would draw 78 amps. I replaced it with a 250 amp inverter and it draws 43 amps full tilt. So if you have a transformer machine and you want to weld at 75 amps ok but at 120 amps probably not. They do run but are not as smooth as the same machine on the power grid. I have run my millermatic 200 on an old 60's vitage trailblazer and it would run but the arc was not near as stable as the same machine plugged into an outlet. I hope I am not confusing you. That is not my intent. I run my inverter 250 amp mig on my new trailblazer and I honestly do not see any difference than if I were plugged into the grid.
Reply:This thread has a lot of good info on a 5.5kW generator and maxstar 150 : http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...star-150s-infoI like the used trailblazer idea though. You are looking at 4k+tax on new equipment. Just doing a quick search within my state, I see used trailblazers from $2500-4500. This will vary by state though. Try using statewidelist.com and searchtempest.com to search craigslist by state or within x miles of your location.Last edited by njs552; 11-04-2015 at 04:00 PM.1988 Big 50 Diesel CC/CV1982 Weldanpower 225/2101968 SAE 300 motor generatorMaxstar 200SD2015 AHP 200x"The trouble with our Liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan
Reply:At 5000 feet elevation, expect about a 20% horsepower drop. The calculator below says that, and that is about what I recall from engineering school. http://www.csgnetwork.com/relhumhpcalc.htmlThis is due to lower air pressure, so there is less oxygen for the motor to burn.Sculptures in copper and other metalshttp://www.fergusonsculpture.comSyncrowave 200 Millermatic 211Readywelder spoolgunHypertherm 600 plasma cutterThermal Arc GMS300 Victor OA torchHomemade Blacksmith propane forge
Reply:I don't know if it was answered or not - I had a maxstar 150s and it ran very well off an old 5000/6250 watt generator.The online miller tech guys said it's rated to run on any modern 5000 watt generator and above.It is power factor corrected so that may be one of the reasons.But I don't live at high elevation here in MN.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:I would not worry about 5000ft but more what powers you need. I would not worry about running an inverter on the dirtier power.It kinda sounds like to me you should just buy an engine drive off the bat.Thanks, I will read through that here soon.the only lightly used gas driven unit is a 250 bobcat and the guy wants 4200....I told him I could get it from Cyberweld for 3650 to my door. Granted he has short leads but was not willing to negotiate at this point. I COMPLETELY FORGOT about search tempest and will jump on there asap. Thanks. Originally Posted by njs552This thread has a lot of good info on a 5.5kW generator and maxstar 150 : http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...star-150s-infoI like the used trailblazer idea though. You are looking at 4k+tax on new equipment. Just doing a quick search within my state, I see used trailblazers from $2500-4500. This will vary by state though. Try using statewidelist.com and searchtempest.com to search craigslist by state or within x miles of your location.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveI don't know if it was answered or not - I had a maxstar 150s and it ran very well off an old 5000/6250 watt generator.The online miller tech guys said it's rated to run on any modern 5000 watt generator and above.It is power factor corrected so that may be one of the reasons.But I don't live at high elevation here in MN.
Reply:Originally Posted by rafergusonAt 5000 feet elevation, expect about a 20% horsepower drop. The calculator below says that, and that is about what I recall from engineering school. http://www.csgnetwork.com/relhumhpcalc.htmlThis is due to lower air pressure, so there is less oxygen for the motor to burn.
Reply:As a note to all apparently my search fu sucks or rather my part of the country sucks for used gas driven units. Fount two bobcat 250's and they want over retail and ONE trailblazer within 400 miles of my 80723 zip. Probably due to all the oil field work and such. No way I will spend 4000 on a used bobcat 250 non EFI with 35 foot leads when I can get a new one to my door for 3675 to my door. I pointed this out and neither would negotiate, I realize they hold their value ok but geesh.
Reply:Sorry for the many posts, only thing keeping me sane and distracted from my "man" sickness....would not impress the wife if she comes home to find me curled up in the fetal position sucking my thumb on the couch, research beast mode is way more respectable especially with it being her push. Entered in my stuff on the horsepower loss calculator(thanks for the link ferguson) factoring in my altitude, typical humidity, etc and it figures me at a 17 percent loss on ponies and torque. I don't know if that translates into an equal 17% loss on wattage but i am going to assume it does for safety and I don't know who can confirm that or not. Definitely changes things on the sizing for me.
Reply:Here is one about 2hrs away in Littleton: 2011 Trailblazer 275 with 800hrs for $2850 - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Used-Miller-...8AAOSwT5tWMIqaI don't see much on CL within 500 miles. I guess now it depends on how quickly you are looking to get something. If you are willing to wait, something will be sure to pop up on craigslist at some point. I would also look into industrial auctions within a few hours driving distance, and eBay.If you are in a hurry, either expand your search to surrounding states or eBay.1988 Big 50 Diesel CC/CV1982 Weldanpower 225/2101968 SAE 300 motor generatorMaxstar 200SD2015 AHP 200x"The trouble with our Liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by njs552Here is one about 2hrs away in Littleton: 2011 Trailblazer 275 with 800hrs for $2850 - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Used-Miller-...8AAOSwT5tWMIqaI don't see much on CL within 500 miles. I guess now it depends on how quickly you are looking to get something. If you are willing to wait, something will be sure to pop up on craigslist at some point. I would also look into industrial auctions within a few hours driving distance, and eBay.If you are in a hurry, either expand your search to surrounding states or eBay.
Reply:Cheap generators are built for one purpose; to sell cheaper than their competitors. They are usually overrated. Two factors must be considered. A. will the generator handle load without overheating? B. Will the engine have adequate torque, and will the governor maintain speed to get past the surge loads. A 6500 surge generator will sometimes stall, or slow to a degree it won't start a 3,000 watt motor that under inrush conditions will flow 9000 watts. That generator will slow, amperage will increase exponentially, it will fail to start the load, and might do damage. That same generator, if equipped with a bigger motor would see starting load as a blip, with only insignificant increase in momentary heat. How badly did they overrate the generator? No seller will answer this question. I like to size a generator at twice the real load. IE. a typical household with staggered motor load of a well pump, sewer pump, furnace, freezer, lighting, and incidental load can average 2000 watts. I feel a 5000 watt generator of the type sold at the box stores is minimum. 4500 watt units smoke.Last edited by Willie B; 11-04-2015 at 08:15 PM.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:Originally Posted by FreneticHey, TDog78, sorry to hear you're not feeling well.I've read that inverters are sensitive to power, and require "clean power" or else they get fried. I clicked on that first Northern Tool link, and on that one the total harmonic distortion is less than 5%- that one counts as clean power. The less distortion the better.Edit- read your post fully, and see that you knew that already, my bad.I've never heard of wattage loss due to elevation... are you thinking of horsepower loss in the generator, due to less oxygen at altitude?
Reply:This is just my 2 cents but I would not get a Bobcat if you do go the gas welder route. The Trailblazer series has a much better gen and a much smoother arc. It is worth the extra money.
Reply:Originally Posted by thegaryThis is just my 2 cents but I would not get a Bobcat if you do go the gas welder route. The Trailblazer series has a much better gen and a much smoother arc. It is worth the extra money.
Reply:Originally Posted by TDog78You are providing the exact same number the miller rep gave me a while back and I tend to believe it. Don't take this the wrong way but I am still not 100 percent due to the conflicting info I have gotten on phone calls today. I know I could be safe and go with the larger gen set or a gas driven unit but I really would like to know the answer for sure. It looks like I have a lot of reading again and Ill go to your link in a while. The one thing I wonder is if there is not a direct correlation between loss of horsepower and loss of wattage; I know all auto's her in CO experience horsepower loss but does the alternator put out less voltage....don't know. Above my pay grade for that area. Again it seems as though a cut and dry answer is hard to attain and it depends on who you talk to.
Reply:My 302 has AC but You are correct the new ones do not. To me the AC is needed very few times. If you want to do aluminum you would need to get an HF unit. By the time you buy an HF arc starter you could buy an inverter tig unit that will plug into the generator. The only time I see a need for AC is if There is a problem with magnetism. With the new inverters it really changes the needs on a mobil unit.
Reply:Originally Posted by thegaryMy 302 has AC but You are correct the new ones do not. To me the AC is needed very few times. If you want to do aluminum you would need to get an HF unit. By the time you buy an HF arc starter you could buy an inverter tig unit that will plug into the generator. The only time I see a need for AC is if There is a problem with magnetism. With the new inverters it really changes the needs on a mobil unit.
Reply:Originally Posted by TDog78Ill have to call my dad in a bit but I believe he uses AC all the time when he is welding drill rig pipe...could be wrong. All I know is he has welded a TON of crap with all that pipe.
Reply:Originally Posted by thegaryI am not saying you can't use ac for things. I am saying you do not need to. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Many people run some rod like 6011 on ac. That same rod runs on dc just fine. its been a while but I think 7014 is an ac rod . It has limited use so I do not use it because its not worth the space it would take up. In the old days there were a lot of ac buzz boxes and so there are many rods that are ac or ac/dc. In my experience most anything an ac rod can do ,it can be do as well or better with dc other than tig welding aluminum.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave7014 is an AC/DC rod.Using AC works well if arc blow is causing problems (like when using large rods at high amps), or on heavily magnetized items. A neighbor farmer says that hay equipment get magnetized pretty often. On this website I've seen others posting that drill pipe gets magnetized as well.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave7014 is an AC/DC rod.Using AC works well if arc blow is causing problems (like when using large rods at high amps), or on heavily magnetized items. A neighbor farmer says that hay equipment get magnetized pretty often. On this website I've seen others posting that drill pipe gets magnetized as well.
Reply:Originally Posted by thegaryITs been a while on 7014 so I do not remember. I did mention magnetism in post 38. Personally I have not run into a problem with magnetism very often. If you run into that problem a lot then ac is useful.
Reply:Honestly I think it is dumb as hell that they got rid of AC on the TB's as apparently with a little bit of reading it use to be a feature of theirs. Nice, miller.Seems like for the marginal cost increase the TB would have been a now brainer but alas.
Reply:Originally Posted by TDog78I am not opposed to the trailblazer at all...I did a little reading and it seems as though it is pretty unanimous that the arc quality is better and really a better overall value in machine, and value is extremely important to me. I will say this though.....all the guys that i know of around here and some of them weld for a living (mainly welding corals at large feed lots) have bobcats on the back, really. Maybe they don't know any better or maybe it is because they weld with soo much drill pipe, I really don't know without talking to them. I am completely open to both and after much deliberation I am starting to lean towards the engine driven units, really just more bang for the buck in the long run.
Reply:Originally Posted by thegaryIt is a very popular machine for sure. I welded with one on dozens of construction sites. I hated every minute of it. The arc quality in my opinion is just poor. Many people use them all the time. I was at a co op a few months ago and ran into a fitter there. We got to talking about welding because he saw my welder in my truck. He told me he was looking at a bobcat to buy and how he was using one at work to weld pipe. We got on the arc quality issue, by the time we left he was trying to talk me into selling my trailblazer. The fact remains that he was welding pipe with it and was doing a good job. The only thing was it was harder to do a good job.
Reply:If you run into magnetism a lot you will want ac but remember the maxstar you were looking at is dc only too. When i purchased my 302 was a about 6 months after they stopped making it. One reason I purchased it was to have ac that being said I use it very little. I looked for a while for a trailblazer with ac and to get it you will have to look at the used market . I am not familiar with the small lincoln gas drives. you might look for a lincoln Ranger or sutch. I can not attest to if they are as good as a trailblazer or not.
Reply:If you go with a generator, MM211 and MaxstarLook at this generatorhttp://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...Fchgfgod0BYJ8Athread on it:http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...red&highlight=Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:@ TDog78 - use SearchTempest as others have said. Most likely you find a deal on a used TB 301/302. If you are patient. Unfortunate you are not looking to score an SA-200. There's a '58 in your vicinity on CL. She looks really nice. "Discovery is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody else has thought" - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi |
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发表于 2021-8-31 22:24:11