Why is stick welding not amperage related?

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Basically my question is, why (with stick) do you essentially set the amperage and leave it (basically) irrelevant to material thickness?  Cause with mig, you are expected to bump up the amperage more and more, the thicker the material.I.e. You can weld (with stick) a 1/4" piece of plate with like 90-120 amps and a 3/4" piece of plate with......  90-120 amps.With a mig, with 1/4" you'd be running (we'll say) 200 amps and with 3/4" you'd be running well over 300.  That's (at minimum) an additional 50% plus more amps.  Assuming all prep is equal, similar number of passes, etc...Why is it this way?  Basically, why is a set amperage out of a set electrode size ok with stick, but a set amperage with a set electrode size (mig wire at the same feed rate) not sufficient?I just can't put together why this is so..  And logically (my logic at least) it seems that mig would have the advantage either way because of current density.  It seems that if anything, you would need to bump current up on a giant stick electrode more than a tiny piece of wire.What say y'all?
Reply:With wire as you turn up the voltage, you up the wire speed. With stick you match the amperage to the electrode size. This varies to some extent, due to thickness of material, type of weld and position of weld.
Reply:ummm, have you ever read a book on welding?you adjust amps on stick for thickness and stick type,,,,Of all the things I lost I miss my mind the most...I know just enough about everything to be dangerous......You cant cure stupid..only kill it...
Reply:Originally Posted by M J DWith wire as you turn up the voltage, you up the wire speed. With stick you match the amperage to the electrode size. This varies to some extent, due to thickness of material, type of weld and position of weld.
Reply:Originally Posted by roadkillbobbummm, have you ever read a book on welding?you adjust amps on stick for thickness and stick type,,,,
Reply:Originally Posted by yamahawr200Yes I understand that.  I am asking why a set amperage on stick can weld a wide range of metal thickness, but with mig, you must keep upping the amperage to get reasonable penetration.
Reply:the amperage changes on diff thicknessess, you just havent noticed.     if i do a verticle up fillet on 3/16  and do same weld on w/o turning amps up on  3/8 plate w/ 1/8 7018, it would be to cold, and couldn't move fast as i need to/, it would be globbing up.   the amperage isn't the same for both.  then    if i take 1/8 7018 and do a flat groove in two 1/4 plates vs say 5/8 plate, i would turn up the amps for the 5/8.     your missing it, find something else to practice on beside a yamaha ")
Reply:When you turn up the amps on mig, you also turn up the wire speed. Turning up the wire speed is essentially increasing the electrode size, in reference to volume of metal being deposited. There you go
Reply:Originally Posted by yamahawr200Yes I understand that.  I am asking why a set amperage on stick can weld a wide range of metal thickness, but with mig, you must keep upping the amperage to get reasonable penetration.
Reply:Ok.  I guess I will try and be more basic here so I can get simple answers my pee brain can understand.Let's say you are running 1/8th 6011 on 1/2" plate.  Max amperage is roughly 120.  Now let's say you wanna run the 1/8th 6011 on 1" plate.  Max amperage is still 120.  Which I would assume you would be running on both the 1/2" AND the 1" yeah?  So the only difference would be more passes for the 1" correct?  (assuming you still choose to use 1/8th if it were not a "poor" choice)So you are (basically) running 120 amps out of a 1/8th 6011 rod.  Why is it ok to run the same amperage on something so much thicker when the only difference is you are doing more passes?  Or is there more at play here?  Cause with mig, the thicker the material, the more amps you need.  Why is it different with stick?  Or is it?
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveDon't sweat it man, lots of people get twisted up thinking on this kind of thing. The amps set for a stick rod are based on getting that rod to burn properly, and the amount of amps you need for what you are welding, and the position it's being welded in.  Also changes for the joint type (feathered edge butt joint vs t-joint for example).For mig, the wire feed speed (WFS) sets the amperageThe voltage affects the bead profile (more volts flattens and widens the bead profile for example)(WFS and volts have to be properly balanced for a nice arc)Does that answer your question?
Reply:On 1" plate there likely will be preheat involved regardless of process.But to your point, above a certain thickness your rod amperage stays the same and you make multiple passes.Same goes for mig.The reason being, for stick welding, if you want to keep increasing amps to match steel thickness, you have to jump up in rod size to do it.The mig wire will also need to be up-sized at some point - it won't carry enough current to allow infinite amps at one wire size.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:I guess my only way to ask is to have someone give me some parameters.  Welding a t-joint that is 1/2" plates to each other, what amperage would you run in mig, and what amperage would you run with a 1/8th 6011?THEN...Welding a t-joint that is 1" plates to each other, what amperage would you run in mig, and what amperage would you run with a 1/8th 6011?Why is the 6011 rod similar amperages with both welds where the mig like doubles in amperage?Why is that?  Or am I wrong all around?
Reply:You are going in circles, I'm out Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveOn 1" plate there likely will be preheat involved regardless of process.But to your point, above a certain thickness your rod amperage stays the same and you make multiple passes.Same goes for mig.The reason being, for stick welding, if you want to keep increasing amps to match steel thickness, you have to jump up in rod size to do it.The mig wire will also need to be up-sized at some point - it won't carry enough current to allow infinite amps at one wire size.
Reply:Originally Posted by yamahawr200Ok.  I thought 1/8th was sort of unlimited on what thickness you could weld if you did multipass. I guess that was my confusion.  Because people use 1/8th rod for EVERYTHING it seems and just do multipass if they need more strength.  I never really see people bumping up rod size and amperage and doing single pass.  I always see them running 1/8th and doing more passes.
Reply:Of all the things I lost I miss my mind the most...I know just enough about everything to be dangerous......You cant cure stupid..only kill it...
Reply:Originally Posted by roadkillbobb
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveugghh....1/8" can be used in multipass and are very often.Larger rods can too.
Reply:Originally Posted by yamahawr200ha ha ha sorry man.  I know 1/8th is used in multi pass.  As are other rod sizes..I guess I will make it simple.  With no prep or preheat, what material thickness is the limitation of a standard 1/8th 7018 and at what amperage?
Reply:throw 6011 out of your head for now.   in reality its not going to be used on 1 in plate.    think 7018 only for now.    your right in a sense, 5/8 plate 1 plate, 1.5 inch plate will be the same amperage pretty much , multi paeess like you said.     1/8 7018 makes diff in say 3/16, 1/4, to 3/8.   after that, it kinda stays the same.    also the size of plate plays factor.    if i'm working on a 5/8 tractor bucket vs 5/8 test strips the size of a paper back book, after a couple passes, you see a diff in heat
Reply:if you really want to help yourself, there are many basic welding books that have pictures as well as explanations on what you ask, mabe by you reading it , you will be able to understand it better...Of all the things I lost I miss my mind the most...I know just enough about everything to be dangerous......You cant cure stupid..only kill it...
Reply:Originally Posted by roadkillbobb
Reply:Originally Posted by 123weldthrow 6011 out of your head for now.   in reality its not going to be used on 1 in plate.    think 7018 only for now.    your right in a sense, 5/8 plate 1 plate, 1.5 inch plate will be the same amperage pretty much , multi paeess like you said.     1/8 7018 makes diff in say 3/16, 1/4, to 3/8.   after that, it kinda stays the same.    also the size of plate plays factor.    if i'm working on a 5/8 tractor bucket vs 5/8 test strips the size of a paper back book, after a couple passes, you see a diff in heat
Reply:i'm going to drop out.    last thing is, you just need to practice, and find a book w/ pics of how to inspect the weld for to cold, undercut,  to hot, face, size, etc., then it will come to youyour missing the point, your question has been answered many times and you ask it again...sometimes you have to learn on your own ( a book) then you can understand the answers here better...thats how I started..Of all the things I lost I miss my mind the most...I know just enough about everything to be dangerous......You cant cure stupid..only kill it...
Reply:Originally Posted by roadkillbobbif you really want to help yourself, there are many basic welding books that have pictures as well as explanations on what you ask, mabe by you reading it , you will be able to understand it better...
Reply:One of the big problems is you are confusing "amps" with amps. On stick, you set amperage directly. On mig "amps" is often simply a convenient artificial term used to compare machines. On stick you set amps, and voltage varies. On mig you set voltage and amperage varies. Manufacturers use "amps" with smaller migs as a "simple" way to compare output even though it's a poor and inaccurate way to describe the machines. However you never find that term used with industrial mig machines. Everything is voltage and that is how wire manufacturers tell you how to set a machine for a given wire.The term "amps" ( note quotes) gets bandied about mostly because that is how manufacturers describe their units. It makes it simple to tell someone who has never welded what size machine they need. If you are calling out specs on a project however with prints, the settings will be give in volts and wire speed for a given wire size/type and gas used.Mig like with stick, once you pass a certain output point you can do multiple passes based on the wire size/fill you are using. With stick, if you go with a high deposition rod like 7024 you will lay down a lot more material than you would with something like say 7014. With mig, you go from say solid wire or FC to dual shield to increase deposition. Of course rod / wire size would also change that as well. However larger rod/wire requires more heat to run, and that might be too much for thinner materials. You can lay down a lot of material with 1/4" stick rods or 1/16" wire, but it's probably needs to be run too hot to be very useful on say 1/4" plate. On the other hand it's going to take forever to weld up 4" thick fillets using 1/8" rod or .045 wire.... Then just to complicate things some high tensile steels you don't want to overheat, so that forces you to back down your wire/rod size, even if you would like higher deposition rates. The steel needs to be below a certain temp to run your next bead, and while bigger rod/wire may lay down more material, it may take longer to cool down so you can make your next pass vs simply a running smaller size..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:See now there's what you really need... an experienced teacher. Look around for some welding courses... there should be some night courses offered if you work in the daytime. I live in the middle of buttf**k nowhere and there's still courses within 45 miles.250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC StickF-225 amp Forney AC Stick230 amp Sears AC StickLincoln 180C MIGVictor Medalist 350 O/ACut 50 PlasmaLes
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveYou are going in circles, I'm out
Reply:I don't understand why you are so hung up on "material thickness determines the amperage". You heard one little bit of information somewhere and now think you completely understand the principles of mig welding. In the real world of welding, we get our machine set to run a nice smooth sounding bead. Then we leave it there. Doesn't matter what we are working on. They only time we change it is doing vertical uphill. Most mig machines I've used doesn't even let you know the amperage. You get wire speed and volts. Amps are automatic. There is no requirement for certain amps for certain thicknesses.
Reply:You need to hands-on experiment to really answer your own question.  My Miller 350p is a 400 "amp" machine.  It also has setting that will show actual amps on the digital display.  With .045 wire, @ 24 volts, it's almost impossible to get past about 275 amps without the machine trying to go into spray transfer even with 75/25 gas.  I experimented and found that even on think plate the "amps" were often in the 200-250 "amp" range and wire speed in the 200's   Now, where you really use these high amp machines is aluminum and spray transfer mode that you are doing 25-30 volts at 400+ wire speed on '045, 1/16+ wire.  In other words, MIG has a set range just like stick. It just appears to be a much larger range due to the various wire sizes.   For example, running .045 wire, my range to get desired bead on any steel I'd going to be about 75-300 inches and 14-24 volts with a 75/25 gas.    A machine that does 1/2" single pass DOES NOT penetrate 1/2 inch deep on a single pass (it generates enough heat to effectively fuse the welding wire to 1/2" steel on a single pass)  proper joint design and prep are still required.I think that confuses many folks new to this.   Also regardless the size of the metal, each material can only draw of a limited amount of heat due the the structural properties of that metal.  That's why you don't need 1000 amps to TIG weld 1 inch aluminum but do need 250 amps to TIG weld 1/4" aluminum.  Think of it as a curve on a graph. The thicker the metal past a certain thickness the smaller the amp increase needs to be.Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Power (watts)=volts x amps. MIG is a constant voltage machine, you adjust the volts not the amps. Amps changes as a function of wire speed and stick out. Stick is a constant current machine, you adjust the amperage. Volts change with arc length. Arc length is for the most part held constant.Miller Multimatic 255
Reply:May be this will help. https://www.millerwelds.com/resource...ng-calculatorsDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:I think a good way to answer this for you is like this. In the above examples you gave, you have a 1/8" rod, it only takes just so many amps to burn that size rod. You are set with a fixed rod size in this instance. If you went to a larger diameter rod, you will need a corresponding increase in amps. In MIG welding, increasing wire speed, increases amps accordingly. In increasing wire feed speed, you have affectively increased "rod" size, so an increase in amps is required to burn more wire faster, same as if you used a larger rod for stick welding. So with MIG, even though you are still with the same wire size, pushing it out faster requires more amps to melt it in faster to keep up. You end up with a larger weld bead running a faster WFS, same as using a larger rod increases weld bead size and rate of deposition of filler metal. Does this help you understand it better?
Reply:yamaha,Your question is legitimate but you are hung up on the "AMPS"Louie1961 mentioned Power (watts)=volts x amps.Think of the Power as HEAT required to melt the material.Both Stick and Mig use the same basic formula- they just deliver the heat in different ways.Your 1/8" covered electrode example has a range it can handle. So does a solid wire .030 for example.1/8" Electrode up to 150amps..030 Solid wire: minimum 50A 17V 95 IPM WFS, maximum 200A 23V 600 IPM WFSFor the Stick machine you adjust the amperage on the machine. Your Multipass example is a little misleading because Multipass is only creating enough heat to melt the electrode to the last pass. You are not creating enough heat to weld the 1" material in a single pass- that is why a 1/8" electrode can work. If you want to weld in single pass you then need a bigger electrode and also need to increase the amperage on the machine.For Wire feed process there isn't an adjustment for Amps. Voltage and Wire Speed combined create the "heat" (a lot of people use Amps here) required to melt the base material. That is why a .030 solid wire has a range from 50amps up to 200amps that is can handle. Thinner material requires less heat: select lower Voltage and proper wire speed feed to create less heat AKA amps.adjust Voltage and wire speed for thicker material resulting in more amps/heat.make sense?Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:I would recommend getting a copy of , Procedure Handbook Of Arc Welding Design And Practice, by the Lincoln Electric Co. It has been in print since 1933 and is pretty much the Bible for all things welding related.   I think you will enjoy it. RegardsSteveLincoln SA200 (1966 Redface)Lincoln IdealArc 250Steve1990 Miller Dialarc 2501993 Miller Maxstar 140 STR2015 Lincoln MP2101966 Lincoln SA200 Redface
Reply:Originally Posted by Louie1961Power (watts)=volts x amps. MIG is a constant voltage machine, you adjust the volts not the amps. Amps changes as a function of wire speed and stick out. Stick is a constant current machine, you adjust the amperage. Volts change with arc length. Arc length is for the most part held constant.
Reply:.....Last edited by yamahawr200; 11-10-2015 at 03:01 PM.
Reply:Reminds me of an old Chevy Chase movie  Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:If you are using 1/8" 7018 rods, it won't matter if you are welding 1/2" or 1" steel, the amperage settings will still be the same, as you are setting it to burn the rod at it's optimal range. It will be a multipass weld either way, for 1/2" or 1", that is if you are trying to get maxumum strength in the weld or full penetration.Same with MIG, as you need to turn up WFS to make a larger weld, it increases output of the machine.
Reply:You are still missing the point.You definitely need to read up on what is trying to be accomplished when welding anything.Firstly, SMAW "stick welding" uses a constant current power supply. You, as the weldor, choose how much current to use. Generally this is based on the thickness of the welding rod and adjusted slightly up or down based on the material being welded (thickness, preparation and direction of weld). Separately, GMAW and FCAW "MIG welding" uses a constant voltage power supply. The thickness of the wire is also a constant. You as the weldor choose the wire speed and voltage based mainly on the thickness of the material. With minor adjustments to wire speed based on joint preparation. Also, (you'll have to google this one) GMAW operates in several modes (short circuit and spray transfer are just 2).Yes, generally, the thicker the material, the more heat (power) you need to bring to welding process. But, since the two processes bring the power, filler and flux into the weld in different manners, you can not compare "MIG amps" to "stick amps". You have to learn how to set each machine based on the materials and prep at hand. After you get some hood time with both processes, read up on GTAW "TIG" and OAW "oxyacetylene" and become more involved in the actual weld process!Be wary of The Numbers: Figures don't lie,. but liars can figure.Welders:2008 Lincoln 140 GMAW&FCAW2012 HF 165 'toy' GTAW&SMAW1970's Cobbled together O/A
Reply:Originally Posted by BistineauIf you are using 1/8" 7018 rods, it won't matter if you are welding 1/2" or 1" steel, the amperage settings will still be the same, as you are setting it to burn the rod at it's optimal range. It will be a multipass weld either way, for 1/2" or 1", that is if you are trying to get maxumum strength in the weld or full penetration.Same with MIG, as you need to turn up WFS to make a larger weld, it increases output of the machine.
Reply:Of all the things I lost I miss my mind the most...I know just enough about everything to be dangerous......You cant cure stupid..only kill it...
Reply:Originally Posted by mike837goYes, generally, the thicker the material, the more heat (power) you need to bring to welding process. But, since the two processes bring the power, filler and flux into the weld in different manners, you can not compare "MIG amps" to "stick amps". You have to learn how to set each machine based on the materials and prep at hand.
Reply:Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Well I appreciate the effort guys.  Hopefully down the road, it will come to me.
Reply:I doubt it...lol..but its been an entertaining thread....and they ask why I bang my head against the wall.........because it feels so good when i stop..........................all in good fun...............Of all the things I lost I miss my mind the most...I know just enough about everything to be dangerous......You cant cure stupid..only kill it...
Reply:Originally Posted by yamahawr200it doesn't quite make sense to me.
Reply:Originally Posted by yamahawr200Well I appreciate the effort guys.  Hopefully down the road, it will come to me.