Anybody on here familiar with horizontal mills and cutters?

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When it comes to machining tools, I'm the guy with a 110V welder who wants to know if I can build a trailer.     That's how dumb I am about them.  I'm so dumb I don't want to show up on a machining forum asking these questions.   I was given a Burke no. 4 horizontal mill and a cabinet full of cutters and what I believe is a vertical head adapter for this mill.  If I were to take the time to take pictures of this mill and tooling, is there anybody here who could identify what the different tools are for, and what they're called? The main thing I know so far is that this mill uses #9 B&S tooling, which would be a bad thing except that I appear to have a whole ton of it, so the fact that it's mostly obsolete is irrelevant.I also appear to have some other widgets that do who-knows-what in relation to this mill, that someone might be able to identify.Thanks.  I don't want to waste bandwidth with pics if this will be a non-starter.
Reply:Im sure from this wealth of knowledge someone is bound to know something. And I am always looking to learn more about the machining side of the shop.If you cant fix it with a hammer, it must be an electrical problem."Boy, everyone starts with a full bag of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before the bag of luck is empty."-Grandad circa 1990ish
Reply:Fire up some pics, horizontal mill tooling is just that whether it's on a little Burke or a big Cincy. If the B&S taper is on the Horizontal spindle, no big deal as it's just the taper on the inboard end of the arbor.If it were on the Vertical head, it makes tooling a bit more scarce tho not impossible.
Reply:OK then, I'm getting ready to hit the sack so I'll upload some pics tomorrow evening.
Reply:The little Burkes were used everywhere from toolrooms to die shops & even auto-generator repair. Post up the goodies!Matt
Reply:My horizontal and vertical mills both have B&S 9 spindles.  I have also heard that B&S 9 is hard to come by but I have had no problem finding it.  I have acquired so much B&S 9 tooling that I don’t think I will ever be able to use it all.  They make new import collets and end mill holders at a reasonable price.  Tools4cheap http://www.tools4cheap.net   carries it as does Travers Tool http://travers.com/ .   I also have found a few extra spindles for my horizontal mill in 1” and 7/8” sizes.  So don’t let the illusive B&S 9 taper dissuade you from your Burke. Attached Images
Reply:There you go. Though not nearly as common as R8 or 30/40/50 taper, B&S tooling can be found.  I'm thinking also of Grand Tool and Plaza Machinery are also good potential sources of that taper. Grand makes new stuff and Joe Bergamo at Plaza has a LOT of used stuff (above and beyond what he lists on his website).  Best bet is to drop him an e-mail. Be patient, he can be a bit slow but is a great resource.@WFM, is that an Index mill you have?
Reply:1964 Index model 645, single phase with DRO. It is a wonderful machine and I use it all the time. I am still planning to tear it down to clean, paint and completely restore as I have done with all my other machines.  Just need to find the time between projects. Attached ImagesLast edited by WFM; 03-13-2012 at 02:01 PM.
Reply:OK, here goes with the pics of the machine and tooling.  It will take several posts to get it all in here.  Please help identify or correct my bad guesses.1 and 2.  The mill.3. The "overhead" (I think that's what it's called) with vertical head attached.  The collet in the vertical mill says Hardinge 3/8 3C.4. Something used to index objects???5. A long arbor??? Attached Images
Reply:Some more stuff that was in the cabinet.  The second one is a pivoting vise, the others are????We will call these pics 6-10. Attached ImagesLast edited by tbone550; 03-13-2012 at 06:03 PM.
Reply:More stuff, identify please....We will call these pics 11-15. Attached Images
Reply:More stuff, pics 16-20. Attached Images
Reply:Last of the boxes of stuff, pics 21-23.  One more post to go. Attached Images
Reply:These last five, pics 24-28 are of randomly picked individual cutters.  Could somebody name them, so I'll know what to call them?  Most of them say "7 B&S" on the shaft.  Also, can somebody explain why some of this tooling is threaded and some has a flat on the end of the shank? Attached Images
Reply:Cool stuff..11 thru 14..Taper toolholders and the tooling it fits that goes into the machine..You have some face cutter arbors also..Lots of mills..milling saws..all sorts of neat stuff.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:#1 & 2 : the mill# 3 : Hardinge = lathe/tool company; 3C is a collet size call-outhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colletexamplehttp://littlemachineshop.com/product...ory=-195207565#4 : looks like an indexer for holding the workpiece between centers and then attaching it to the indexing plate via a dog, to do things like turn a piece of stock into a hex shaft, or octagon shaft, or a shaft with various flats on it in certain indexed positions, and whatnot#5 : ?#6 :  work table, clamp the workpiece onto the table via the T-slots#7 : tiltable vise to hold the workpiece at various angles to the cutter#8 : ?#9 :  various T-slot hold-down (clamp) pieces, use with the worktable to hold the workpiece so you can mill it#10 :  step-block to use in conjunction with the T-slot hold-downs so you can hold the workpiece (useful to hold the workpiece  up in the air a bit so you don't mill through the table)#11 :  various tool holders/adapters.  Tapered end (with or without tang) goes into machine, tool goes into holder.  If there is a tang, line it up with the mating recess inside the machine and then 'snug' the holder into the machine.#12 : more tool holders/adapters#13 : more tool holders/adapters#14 :  another tool holder/adapter#15 :  more tool holders/adapters#16 :  various milling cutters#17 :  more milling cutters#18 :  set-up tools, insert into the matching taper in the machine and use to line-up and/or check alignments#19 :  more milling cutters#20 :  more milling cutters#21 :  more milling cutters#22 :  more milling cutters#23:  more milling cutters#24 : another milling cutter to cut slots/keyways/etc#25 :  ?#26 :  another milling cutter#27 : a very-steep taper milling cutter#28 : another milling cutterSome of the tools go right into the machine, some go into a tool holder/adapter that goes into the machine, some go onto a shaft or adapter that then goes into the machine or into another tool holder/adapter.Also clean off rust and whatnot from the tapers before inserting or trying to insert them into the mating tapers.  The tapers won't seat properly if there is rust or crud on them.  Anything more than maybe a -thin- film of grease/oil on the tapers is NotGood.Last edited by MoonRise; 03-13-2012 at 06:01 PM.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:No. 18 (R) would be a form of a drill pad, or a crotch center. It's typically used in the tailstock of a lathe to hold round stock to be drilled from the headstock. I'm guessing that this would not be a B&S 9 taper, more than likely a Morse #3. B&S was common in mills/drills but I'm not familiar with that in a lathe. Could have been a special order for a small shop, though, that wanted really redundant tooling.No.27 Guessing it would be an tapered endmill used for die work.
Reply:You hit the mother load on tooling - worth 3 or 4 times the value of the machine if you wanted to part it out, but I would keep it all if you intend on keeping the mill.Photo #3 is the overarm that has a right angle attachment mounted on it. The large diameter fits into the large hole above the cutter now mounted in your mill. You will need to remove the cutter and endmill holder thats mounted in the mill now and the small tapered shaft on the right angle head will fit into the #9 B&S taper spindle hole in the mill to power the right angle head.It sounds like the right angle head uses a smaller 3C collet to hold the cutters. Kind of limited for how large a cutter you can use but still very useful.If you remove the right angle cutter attachment from the overarm you can mount the part shown in photo#5 into the mills #9 spindle for power. This Shaft will let you mount all your side cutters photo #23.There are already spacers on this arm (photo#5) and you take them off to position the cutter where you want it then slide them back on until its tight. This is how you set up your horizontal cutters and the overarm (photo 3) should support the end of the cutter holder.There is a Yahoo group with a pretty active group of people specifically for the Burke #4 mill, you should be able to get all the help you need from those folks. Lots of rebuild photos etc.
Reply:Not to step on the OT, but WFM doesn't have to take a back seat to anybody as far as FIDELITY to where machining comes from... HATS OFF!OK back on OT tbone, my take...YOU SUCK!#1 = Burke with universal table... (can't see the motor & that can make a difference)#2 You suck more... Correct pulleys & POWER FEED...#3 YEA you got the vert attachment... ABOUT the SUCK thing???#4 That's about the fastest divider type ever sold for a machine tool (may be more plates, if not you can make them).#5 Mill Arbor, with a stagger tooth plain mill cutter, (uses less HP and leaves nearly as clean of side as straight tooth)...#6 Angle table not (sin/sine, that's different), you prolly already got that one...#7 Angle vise & stop (I think), I've never seen that before... (you're gonna need to check if the vise tilts from the base.. if not then it's just a nice vise with a stop)...#8 To me might be a crap ton... Set against a part in the vise + the side of the vise it's an end stop... with a scribe it's a markall (used in wood working too). If built well it can be a depth gage... etc. etc.#9 Toe Clamps & stops like you either dream to have... or make them yourself...#10 Step blocks (look like they were fashioned after Foote/Jones type)...#11 End mill holders... (in the day, you didn't drill holes with milling machines)...#12 Adapters... You're gonna have to figger out what goes inside, (I' guessin' it's Morse taper)...#13 Mill arbor (left), and to the right two shell mill arbors (you can still get HHS Steel shell mills).#14 Can be used for treepaning, spotface or boring...#15 This is tough... The first looks like a jacobs taper (jacobs doesn't use a nut, only screws... or nothing, I dunno, the next three look like adapters, the last on the right looks like a morse taper end mill holder (you're gonna have to check it & see if it wobbles in the B&S hole).#16 Milling cutters, as late as the mid 80's premium taper shank cutters came in Honduras Mahogany blocks (kinda like having a stuffed Bald Eagle in the basement now)...Don't get caught with it!!!!#17 More mills, except... in old timey days a "T" slot was cut with an end mill & a "T" cutter (2 pass deal). The cutter on the left bottom may be the 2nd cut.#18 Those two tools are used to make the world right (square) when using the vert head more quickly.#19 OK!!! the tapered reamer doesn't belong... If you had gears it would bust them!!!! To me it appears like an end mill for plastic molds (7-22degrees depending)... toss it... or weld a socket to it and use it for a bridge reamer (hand only). The rest of the cutters appear to belong (BTW M2 HSS was in wide use those days, good but don't overspeed it).#20 The 4 on the left are straight shank & you don't have a holder (I think), the rest seem to belong... however there is a ball nose cutter on the right with a taper shank that the Burke will have trouble with thrust and may not work out so well if used (could hurt the machine).#21 Good deal of straight shank mill cutters, & a few taper shank millers, one "T" slot cutter & a nifty "I can make it" hand burr tool...#22 Oh my! Looks like another witches brew... I see another ball nose cutter, a number of correct tapered shank cutters, there are saw/slitters & plain mills (straight side) & other stuff... The stone (red) gets tossed!!!#23 Assortment of what is called plain mill cutters, some straight side, some stagger tooth, one dovetail/taper & some slitters. I'd be surprised if there was an arbor large enough for some of those with what you got (could be wrong.. wouldn't be the first time!)...#24 LAST BATCH!!!! Stagger tooth plain milling cutter (that's one of a few I don't think the Burke has the poop to go with), no reference but looks to be near 4"dia x1  1/4"arbor.#25 Ball nose end mill, used for profiling, mold making, die sinking and general milling... the end thrust these put back in the machine is huge! In the 80's the inheritance kids or the MBA's hired to run shops when CNC started to mature used machinery so hard that thrust sensors were coupled into the hardware... They don't use horsepower they just break things from thust... To an old salt there is no explaining it??? "What's in there" they said" (meaning the head)???#26 Another mill (end mill), used for side cutting, die making etc. This is right for the Burke.#27 Weldon shank taper mill... As mentioned above, taper end mills were usually used in mold making for draft angle, in this case it may have been used for a locking taper reamer or some such thing but it would have never been seen by the people who designed and built the Burke for that purpose.Have Fun! Matt
Reply:Hi There I also have a Burke #4. Your lucky to have the power feed they are hard to come by. Google Burke #4 there is a forum for those guys thats a wealth of info. The tool sharpeningpeople will love you these machines don't have much power and they like really sharp tools.Feel free to PM me for any help I can give you. BJ
Reply:Wow, thanks a lot guys.  I figured the tooling was pretty comprehensive.  I pulled out my MSC catalog and started realizing just how expensive all that stuff is new!  Just one of those cutters can easily be $50 plus, and it appears I have, well, a lot.Matt, the motor is a 3-phase 3/4 hp 1100 RPM.I'm pretty tempted to let the machine sit until I can sign up for a machine shop night class at the local CC.  I'd hate to tear my own stuff up farting around.  Maybe I'll clean up the mill and the tooling, and organize it a little better in the meantime.What's the best way to clean the rust off of the tapers?  I have a bench grinder with a wire brush on it, but I don't know if that's kosher.Last edited by tbone550; 03-14-2012 at 10:05 PM.
Reply:You definitely scored.  Check youtube as there are lots of how to videos on how to use everything.  I am a novice machinist as well and have been educating myself by reading, watching and doing.  The most complicated part is usually fixturing, as the cutting is pretty straightforward.  The cutters that look like drill bits for the most part are just endmills and and the discs mount on a spindle.  You did score on the tooling.  Most cutters aren't super expensive individually, but to amass a collection like that could be a small fortune.  Like you saw, they range anywhere from a few bucks to 100+.  Definitely jealous...looks like a nice machine.Try to see if you can track down a manual for it, as that will give you the basic operations.  I had never even touched a lathe before I brought mine home and now I pretty much have all the basics down.  For operating machinery, it's pretty safe to say you can't go wrong with adjusting levers with the machine off....although there are certain things you can't change with it running.This should help explain some of the basics and there are plenty more if you poke around.
Reply:Originally Posted by WFMMy horizontal and vertical mills both have B&S 9 spindles.  I have also heard that B&S 9 is hard to come by but I have had no problem finding it.  I have acquired so much B&S 9 tooling that I don’t think I will ever be able to use it all.  They make new import collets and end mill holders at a reasonable price.  Tools4cheap http://www.tools4cheap.net   carries it as does Travers Tool http://travers.com/ .   I also have found a few extra spindles for my horizontal mill in 1” and 7/8” sizes.  So don’t let the illusive B&S 9 taper dissuade you from your Burke.
Reply:Originally Posted by tbone550Wow, thanks a lot guys.  I figured the tooling was pretty comprehensive.  I pulled out my MSC catalog and started realizing just how expensive all that stuff is new!  Just one of those cutters can easily be $50 plus, and it appears I have, well, a lot.Matt, the motor is a 3-phase 3/4 hp 1100 RPM.I'm pretty tempted to let the machine sit until I can sign up for a machine shop night class at the local CC.  I'd hate to tear my own stuff up farting around.  Maybe I'll clean up the mill and the tooling, and organize it a little better in the meantime.What's the best way to clean the rust off of the tapers?  I have a bench grinder with a wire brush on it, but I don't know if that's kosher.
Reply:Thanks again for the help, Matt.  Some further info - I went to the Burke mills Yahoo Group, and did some more investigating over this past weekend, then I went back out and looked the mill over some more.  I don't have a plain motor - I have a Lima motor with integral 4-speed gearbox.  From what I can see online, that's a good thing.  Seems like I have a lot of good things here.One bad thing I noticed on closer inspection is that the underside of the T-slot in the table is badly eaten away - somebody must have been using something other than the grooved retainers in there.  Considering the machine came from a farm, maybe they were using square-head bolts or even carriage bolts....so I may need a new table.  I'll need to look at it further when I have more time.Thanks for the suggestions on cleaning and lube.  There seems to be a lot of play in all of the handles, so I probably have some wear or loose parts to deal with also.  It will be a really fun project for me - I have always wanted to have some machine tools and the knowledge to use them.