Welding on Railroad Wheels

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A custom of mine is a machine shop that specializes in railroad wheel machining. A customer of theirs adapts construction equipment to run on the railroads, and they frequently get machinery back for repair with the wheels badly worn. He's got a ton of these worn wheels sitting around that he recently thought to ask if they were repairable. So the machine shop brought me a couple of the wheels and asked me to see if I could repair them. I attached some pictures of the wheels. The rims are worn down quite a bit. They want 1/2" of weld all the way around the rim of the wheels, and about 3/8" of weld protruding out past the rim (to add to the OD). I understand to pre-heat these, keep them warm, then let them cool slowly. They don't know what specific material it is. He knows it's a cast steel, not a cast iron, and that it was heat treated. Any one know what kind of filler/rod should be used and what process would give best results? These will be re-heat treated after they are machined. Let me be clear, these are for a sample only. They will not be going on trains... The machine shop is going to give them to their customer to test them out, and if they work, there will be MANY more to do. Any advice on the process?John 3:16(2) Miller Pheonix 456(2) Millermertic 252Dynasty 210DXHobart 210MVPDoringer D350 SA Cold SawScotchman 350LT Cold SawWebb 10x50 MillWebb 15x40 LatheGeka Bendicrop Ironworker
Reply:Originally Posted by EcondronLet me be clear, these are for a sample only. They will not be going on trains... Any advice on the process?
Reply:The co. I used to work for had a large positioner they used to build up manganese cone crusher liners w/ an automatic wire feeder. They set the rotation speed, wire speed and voltage and start 'er up. Had a microswitch that would get bumped by a protrusion on the table to make the wire gun move over a set distance on each revolution. Might be something to look into. I don't have any info to give you as this was 30 yrs ago. Might google "automatic manganese wear metal build up".                                          MikeOl' Stonebreaker  "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes"Hobart G-213 portableMiller 175 migMiller thunderbolt ac/dc stick Victor O/A setupMakita chop saw
Reply:I wouldn't touch that with a 50' pole,
Reply:send a piece to a lab so you know exactly what material you are working with.  use a band saw to cut it out ... not any thermal cutting.  Then start calling specialty wire manufacturers and heat treaters to know exactly what you are going to have to do.I used to build up a lot of trunions.  we would always send a chunk out to have tested ... then turn it true, weld it up, and turn it back down to size then re heat treat them.AWS CWI xxxx21711968 SA200  Originally Posted by WelderMike  I hate being bipolar, It's awesome.
Reply:Looks like a good candidate for sub arc on a similar set up to how they build up worn idler wheels for heavy equipment
Reply:They are cast and forged , the contact area is case hardened here is a video on manufacture.  It does not give the material just that it is made of recycled steel.https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=..._FWK8xXlxQ5gxg  I think a blacksmith could shed some light on this repair. Also some hardness testing on one before welding.  I think it will be fairly straight forward but I would do some destructive testing on some after repair.
Reply:I'm pretty sure train wheels are forged. I don't know about building them up. Is there enough meat to clean them up on a lathe and still meet the specification?
Reply:I think since these are not used on train cars they could have a tire installed like is in the second part of this link.https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...meVUwkyk_-0lCg I think the machine shop could machine the wheels, install a tire that they could make with the info in this link.
Reply:Just how big/heavy is this equipment?Those train wheels weigh, What? 600 pounds each.This is the way to go.
Reply:Another thing, just because one Manufacturer uses a certain grade of steel does not mean any others are the same. A name or number on them would help identify. Might even vary over time with the same Company.
Reply:thegaryRe: Welding on Railroad WheelsI think since these are not used on train cars they could have a tire installedI think the machine shop could machine the wheels, install a tire that they could make with the info in this link.PMforhireRe: Welding on Railroad WheelsI'm pretty sure train wheels are forged. I don't know about building them up. Is there enough meat to clean them up on a lathe and still meet the specification?He said they are for a customer of his and there will be MANY more as in MANY$ more. Why tell the shop to put tires on or cut them down to  and not take the job? I would also cut a piece have it tested to see what the heck they really are made from. Since they are already undersized they wouldn't just recut them. They want them welded. Weld them on a semi-auto wire feeder jig. Turntable RPM set, wire & voltage set, preheat, let 'er rip, cash the checks. Damn I'd kill for an easy repeat job I could have a kid babysit, load parts and turn it on.RyanMiller Multimatic 200 tig/spool gun/wireless remoteMillermatic 350P, Bernard/XR Python gunsMiller Dynasty 350, Coolmate 3.5 & wireless remoteCK WF1 TIG wire feederMiller Spectrum 375 XtremeOptrel e684Miller Digital EliteMiller Weld-Mask
Reply:If they are actual train wheels, I wouldn't weld them. I built a home made wrecking ball and used some train wheels for extra weight.  The ball had a piece of 8" dia. drill stem cut like a chisel end to be used to break up a runway. It weighed about 3 tons. The guy I was building it for never got the job but another place rented it for a regular demo job. Even with 600 deg's preheat and 11018 rods that I used to weld the 4140 drill stem, the welds on the train wheels cracked and actually had a couple chunks break out. Even when I took them to the Cat dealer to see if the could press the axles out with their 150 ton press (they couldn't) they welded a temporary lift hook on them with 7018. The 1st wheel made it to the press and when they were laying the wheel down, the lifting lug popped right off. Real lucky it didn't break when they carrying it with the overhead crane. I ended up cutting the hubs out so they are a type of steel but you'd need to know exactly what type of steel to see if there is a welding procedure for it.
Reply:I looked in the lit I have from Lincoln on hardfacing to see what they had. They don't list refacing wheels under the train stuff, but they do list them for buildup on mine carts. Suggested method for production was automated subarc, but wire and stick were also listed. They do suggest sending a sample out for testing..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Working amongst others in the railroad industry I might be of some help.These are regularly built up using FCAW wire on an semi-automated setup, using a positioner and a home-made fork where the welder puts his torch in, so that he could slide from left to right over the wheel surface.Are these the type of wheels made from a single piece, or is it a central part and a thin (1.5 - 2 inches thick) wheel band that is press fitted over the central part?This is not always clearly visible, but you need to check this first.for your information: the hardness of the rails should be higher, as this means the wheels wear faster (they're easier to replace!).Typical hardness of a rail: 260-300 BrinellTypical hardness of a wheel: around 250 Brinell, with a yield strength of at least 520 MPa (75 ksi) and a tensile strength of 850-1000 MPa (125-145 ksi).Last edited by kingnero; 12-15-2015 at 04:10 AM.
Reply:Any chance your customer can get with theirs to inquire as to who the OEM is that makes them to see if they can offer an approved repair/build-up process?  I realize in the interest of selling more product they may say repair is not recommended but then one never knows. Originally Posted by pat hI wouldn't touch that with a 50' pole,
Reply:There was a show on the Discovery channel showing the rail car repair shop in Chicago. I remember them turning the flat spots out of the wheels but don't remember if they showed a welding process?
Reply:600# each would be my guess as well. Don't have a scale large enough to weigh them. These first couple are going to suck to do, but it seems like a really nice gig if I can get a decent setup. My customer was pretty confident they were cast, but he may think casting is the same as forging. But he's an old machinist, so I would think he would be pretty sharp about that stuff? I was told they can buy a new casting for $900, then they pay to have them machined. So he just told me if the cost of welding was $500 or less per wheel, they would be happy with that. Don't know enough yet to know if it's worth it. I don't think I want to buy a turntable just to do the two, but then again if it will give me better results and a greater chance of future business, it may be worth it. Plus I may use it for future jobs. I'll see if I can find any markings on the castings and get in touch with the manufacturer. Thanks for all your input!John 3:16(2) Miller Pheonix 456(2) Millermertic 252Dynasty 210DXHobart 210MVPDoringer D350 SA Cold SawScotchman 350LT Cold SawWebb 10x50 MillWebb 15x40 LatheGeka Bendicrop Ironworker
Reply:Actual RR wheels- either for Locos or cars are now forged. Worked at one point for a Shortline RR that does excursions and had an old caboose that had cast wheels and were allowed to use it by the FRA primarily due to low speed used but they inspected it regularly. It is illegal to weld on actual RR wheels used under a car or loco a 'high railer' such as the truck pictured maybe permitted to use welded wheels- be a good idea to ask the FRA first though.
Reply:I just received confirmation along with material certs that these wheels are in fact cast steel, and they are cast from 1045 steel. From my understanding, you can use standard ER70 or ER80 series wires, but the strength of the weld will be less than the strength of the parent material, which is the opposite of what I am looking for. Is standard ER70 wire even heat treatable? Anyone know what filler wire should be used for these? As previously mentioned, they will be pre-heated, slowly cooled, then machined, and re-heat treated. If no one has a definite answer, what are some good specialty wire companies?They also informed me these go on the equipment that either collects, or lays down railroad tracks.John 3:16(2) Miller Pheonix 456(2) Millermertic 252Dynasty 210DXHobart 210MVPDoringer D350 SA Cold SawScotchman 350LT Cold SawWebb 10x50 MillWebb 15x40 LatheGeka Bendicrop Ironworker
Reply:strength , hardness , wearability are very different things. I would think the strength of the wire would be fine. Wearability is something else. I think you may need to go to a specialty wire but remember the wheels need to be softer than the rail. Were you able to get any hardness info before or after heat treating? This could turn into a good fill in job and create good cash flow. You might want the wheel turned down a little in the weld area so that when thay are machined there is a fairly thick weld left. I would contact lincoln and discuss it with one of their reps. It is worth their time if they get the wire purchases in the future. Stoody might be good to talk to also.Last edited by thegary; 12-23-2015 at 04:50 PM.
Reply:I would be leery of working with a company that lets the wheels get that bad. And the railroad company that lets them get away with it. Sure, you can patch them but what is the ultimate cost? You might get them up to profile, but what about the wear factor and spalling under load?  Reminds me of seeing farm tractor tires in a third-world country completely split apart, and the carcass repaired with a dozen or so bolts and a few old sidewalls."USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA  Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:From what I found on 1045 steel it needs to be normalized to weld it. It is not to be welded in its hardened state.  They also recommended low/hy filler metal and preheat then  cover it to let it cool slowly.
Reply:Hmmm. If you can clean, preheat, lay a weld close to it's prior hardness in as welded condition, then machine, your customer may not need to re-harden. That is the way I would approach the job. There are a bevy of metal cored mig wires available that could get you close to what the tensile and hardness should be. Hobart makes the FabCore line in different tensile and yield.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Maybe for a positioner you could knock something up like this using a Harbor Freight cement mixer guts?Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.Originally Posted by EcondronI just received confirmation along with material certs that these wheels are in fact cast steel, and they are cast from 1045 steel. From my understanding, you can use standard ER70 or ER80 series wires, but the strength of the weld will be less than the strength of the parent material, which is the opposite of what I am looking for.
Reply:Could a "wear ring" be placed on the wheel and welded in place on the back side instead of building the whole thing up with weld?12v battery, jumper cables, and a 6013.I only have a facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/pages/VPT/244788508917829
Reply:Originally Posted by VPTCould a "wear ring" be placed on the wheel and welded in place on the back side instead of building the whole thing up with weld?
Reply:Test the material , a few chips will do. Subarc is the way to go Lincoln has the material and equipment if you have a Power supply and feeder you can convert it. You can buy or rent from ReadyArc what you need.
Reply:It may be hard to find but I believe CAT used to make a fixture for welding excavator and dozer idler wheels that would be suitable for this. You only supplied the CV power supply to it. I'll do some looking around a quarry I worked at previously had one shoved back in a corner because it got to be cheaper to buy new idlers.
Reply:Those train wheels are lot larger than the ones I didTorchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Power & rolling stock tires aren't ever welded & they are only handled in approved shops. You can't even press a new tire on an axle in a generic shop and haven't been able to for a long time.Work equipment is another thing, they get fiddled with all the time. The ones pictured look like what you'd find on a 30-60 ton machine like a tamper, ballast regulator or similar. Slow speed & the tires are only there because they have to be or it won't work...Makers use different stuff - some are just flame cut & machined & some are what look to be fairly thick steel stampings (don't weld on the the latter stamped ones). I also think they have it so you can't fiddle with hy-rail wheels on the trucks with cranes or grapples anymore (too big - travel too fast).Anyway, take them at their word on the 1045 casting & make sure any PO or other offer to purchase includes that description. They are not very hard when you get 1/4-3/8'' worn off of them - you can check this by thumping with a ball peen on a worn spot vs un-worn side (you'll get it). On the other hand they will actually get harder than 4140 in the haz and for a short distance below if you get things wrong... Not cool & you won't like machining it a bit.Most contractors weld with E70, 80 or E70-2Ni or E80-1Ni and one I know of that goes with E4130 and full thermal treatment. So you have to figure out what they want, only the 4130 option gets to pretty much original condition as nobody makes a 1045 filler. you definitely don't want any hard facing marking up that expensive main-line rail.Good luck,MattLast edited by Matt_Maguire; 12-26-2015 at 12:01 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by Matt_MaguirePower & rolling stock tires aren't ever welded & they are only handled in approved shops. You can't even press a new tire on an axle in a generic shop and haven't been able to for a long time.Work equipment is another thing, they get fiddled with all the time. The ones pictured look like what you'd find on a 30-60 ton machine like a tamper, ballast regulator or similar. Slow speed & the tires are only there because they have to be or it won't work...Makers use different stuff - some are just flame cut & machined & some are what look to be fairly thick steel stampings (don't weld on the the latter stamped ones). I also think they have it so you can't fiddle with hy-rail wheels on the trucks with cranes or grapples anymore (too big - travel too fast).Anyway, take them at their word on the 1045 casting & make sure any PO or other offer to purchase includes that description. They are not very hard when you get 1/4-3/8'' worn off of them - you can check this by thumping with a ball peen on a worn spot vs un-worn side (you'll get it). On the other hand they will actually get harder than 4140 in the haz and for a short distance below if you get things wrong... Not cool & you won't like machining it a bit.Most contractors weld with E70, 80 or E70-2Ni or E80-1Ni and one I know of that goes with E4130 and full thermal treatment. So you have to figure out what they want, only the 4130 option gets to pretty much original condition as nobody makes a 1045 filler. you definitely don't want any hard facing marking up that expensive main-line rail.Good luck,Matt
Reply:Call Lincoln about filler subarc can be done with any mig. You have a mill and lathe ,use that to turn it .Profax has subarc equipment for feeder retrofit.
Reply:Pavinsteelman has the right idea using subarc. You will use less flux as you can vacumn the excess off and recylce it. Depending on the wires chemical composition and the chemical composition of the flux you can end up with most anything you need. I have done a lot of front idlers and bottom rollers over the years. With subarc there is no bright light, pretty easily set up and a very nice job when you are done. Also it will not take as long as you think to weld them up with subarc. Very high deposition rate and travel speed. Just wanted to add that would be a very profitable operation once your set up.
Reply:If you only have a few wheels to do sub-arc could be an expensive option if you don't already have the equipment to do it. As far as wires a build up wire with medium hardness  may be a better choice and Stoody have the most experience in this area. You need to have very precise slow speed for turning the wheels and if they're too fast it would be hard to get a consistent even bead by stopping and starting especially since you can't see the puddle or the bead with sub-arc. Even on heavy equipment idler rebuilding isn't very common anymore because of lower cost undercarriage and much higher labour rates in the shop.