Is there any value to this lathe?

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My buddy gave me this old lathe, so it's not a question of paying for it. But any ideas if it is worth trying to setup, and how? I cannot find anything on the net. I guess it will be fun to see if I can restore it. Everything turns freely. I would like to put a chuck in the tailstock. Attached ImagesBurt _____________________Miller Syncrowave 250Millermatic 211Miller 375 Plasma Cutter Hobart Handler 12010FtDrillBit.com
Reply:The only thing I can tell you is that it's old enough to have run off an overhead line belt.  What name is on the data plate under the belt pulley?  Take that name and search on practicalmachinist.com 's antique tools section.
Reply:It's an Atlas.  Not worth much of anything in that condition, but if you put countless hours and dollars into it, it can be made decent, I guess (sorry, I'm not much of an Atlas lathe fan here).
Reply:There is a plate that says "Clawson and Bals. Inc" with a number, but I think that is a property tag from the company that owned it, not the manufacturer. I did find "Clawson and Bals." in a Automobile Digest dated 1933!! So yes, it's probably older than my mother and I'm old.Yes it is a belt drive. If it is an Atlas, that gives me something to search for. Maybe I can find some information there about setup etc. Any idea if I can remove that dead center and put a Jacobs chuck in the tailstock? It came with a large chuck with a long taper, about 3/4" diameter.Countless hours and dollars, hmmmm. Maybe I just need to haul it to the scrapyard.What do you think?Burt _____________________Miller Syncrowave 250Millermatic 211Miller 375 Plasma Cutter Hobart Handler 12010FtDrillBit.com
Reply:Doesn't look much like an Atlas to me, the apron and cross slide appear to be a 2nd operation lathe (can't determine the make).+1 to posting up on practical machinist with whatever info is on that tag.It looks like the cross slide can be removed giving you a place to attach tooling or angle plates so you can bore with a rotating boring bar on parts to difficult to chuck and spin.Good luck,Matt
Reply:[QUOTE=wb4rt;721211Countless hours and dollars, hmmmm. Maybe I just need to haul it to the scrapyard.What do you think?[/QUOTE]Haul it to the scrapyard! While it may be an interesting project to bring it all back to life, after all the time and expense you'll have a very minimal lathe...no power feeds, no provision for cutting threads other than guesswork and a handwheel, no real precision and a fairly narrow work envelope just for starters. If you are going to end up spending the time and money you may as well find a better candidate...which shouldn't be that hard from the condition and minimal utility of the one you have there.Lincoln PrecisionTig 275Miller 251Miller DialArc 250Bridgeport millHossfeld bender & diesLogan shaperJet 14 X 40 latheSouth Bend 9" 'C'Hypertherm 900Ellis 3000 band saw21"Royersford ExcelsiorTwo shops, still too many tools.
Reply:Originally Posted by WyoRoyHaul it to the scrapyard! .....
Reply:Originally Posted by GBMGood Grief . WyoRoy is clearly spoiled.... power feed this... wanting accuracy... LOL
Reply:Is there an antique tractor club, or similar antique machine club, near you? They'd love to have it.Ian TannerKawasaki KX450 and many other fine tools
Reply:Originally Posted by GBMIt could be used as a wood lathe also.....
Reply:I would say that having a usable lathe, has to be better than not having any lathe at all. Clean it up, fit a motor to it.Cheers,  Tony._________________________________Transmig 310 + Argoshield LightOxy acetyleneOxy propanePrehistoric stick welder_________________________________
Reply:Clean it up and get a half horsepower motor for it.  You will have to rig a Vee belt drive to that back pulley shaft but it is doable.  Scotchbrite pads and leave some oil on all the surfaces.  That three jaw chuck is worth well over fifty bucks alone used.  New the chuck is around 200 dollars.  Soon you will be dissatisfied with it but great to learn on.
Reply:Originally Posted by WyoRoy......... but the babbit bearings are probably toast as well.....!
Reply:Originally Posted by fortyonethirtyIs there an antique tractor club, or similar antique machine club, near you? They'd love to have it.
Reply:Yep, quite well aware of the properties of babbit bearings. Also quite well aware of a lathe designed as a minimal, low budget model back in the '20s, or earlier, not really being worth the time and effort to restore when there are better candidates that would take less money and effort to revitalize and end up being far superior in both construction and utility. Still, if you want to extol the bright future of barely minimal lathes, which BTW this one isn't...no screw cutting, have at it. Next time you decide to quote just one part of one of my posts why don't you let it be..."If you are going to end up spending the time and money you may as well find a better candidate...which shouldn't be that hard from the condition and minimal utility of the one you have there." That lathe has no provision for screw cutting, as far as I can tell, no back gears, lack of precision, etc. Why start with a badly designed lathe when there are so many others out there that would be cheaper to get back up and running? Lets see what the original poster says about the thread mount for the chuck on the headstock. If it isn't a common mount, this lathe is going to be even more troublesome as an 80+ year old 3-jaw chuck probably has next to no repeatability and to mount a decent 4-jaw chuck may involve more time and expense than the lathe is worthLincoln PrecisionTig 275Miller 251Miller DialArc 250Bridgeport millHossfeld bender & diesLogan shaperJet 14 X 40 latheSouth Bend 9" 'C'Hypertherm 900Ellis 3000 band saw21"Royersford ExcelsiorTwo shops, still too many tools.
Reply:Burt,That is an oldie goldie for sure.  I would clean it up, shoot some paint on it and put it by my shop door to advertise what I can do for my customers.  Fortunately I dont have a job anymore since I got disabled, but I still tinker and do some stuff for my old very good customers from time to time.  If it's free I would use it as advertising and call it good.BobI'm spending my Kids inheritance, I dont like him that much anyway!!!!!!Enuff tools to do the job, enough sense to use em.Anybody got a spare set of kidneys?  Trade?
Reply:I am generall in agreement with Wyoroy, but not this time. I think it would take a minimal amount of fitting to put a motor on the lathe. After you get it to turn the expense is mostly tooling. It can be a big expense! Most of the tooling is adaptable to other lathes though, and while this lathe is not going to be the be all end all lathe it may make a good starting point. I started with an old Craftsman 109. A more useless lathe I can't imagine, but I did turn some bushings and things on it and learned quite a bit about lathes using it. I have a much bigger, stouter Southbend now, and use it regularly. I don't know how I ever got by without a lathe. I say go for it, but be prepared to start looking for a better lathe soon.
Reply:"I don't know how I ever got by without a lathe" Concur but I really want 2, I like my Southbend but I want a bigger thru hole, and a small gap bed would be real usful.To the original question, Babbet bearings on a lathe really not desirable. So my $.02 as a lathe no its not worth it. But I would still take it, be a little creative and some work and that would make a pretty good  tube notcher, and a fair drill press ( swing is a little limited). Worse case take the chuck and make a weld positioner, and use the screw to make a vise.
Reply:WOW! Thanks guys. I never thought I would get such good information and interest. I have to say, I appreciate and actually agree with every comment - especially WyoRoy. I agree it would be a lot of work for a minimal lathe, but while I don't have a lot of time, I don't have ANY money in it at this point. I never heard of Babbet bearings, so that is something I can learn about. Maybe one of you can help me with this before I start taking things apart and ruin the bearings.Keep in mind, I'm not running a real shop, just a hobbiest. Certainly would not be worth the time and trouble if I was depending on it, but taking it apart, learning how it works, and how to improve it's fit and finish, will teach me a lot whether it ever really runs or not. And if I can get any use out of it is a bonus at this point. I will learn what to look for and what NOT to look for when I am ready for a real lathe. Then I can use it as advertising, nostalgia, an Antique Tractor group (which we have around here), give it to a kid to tinker with, or sell the chuck, make a vise, and scrap the rest. See I was listening to each of you.Please keep commenting, especially with where to start. Everything turns freely but I know nothing about a lathe. I have a 1/2 hp motor to use, but need to either add a v-groove pulley to the drive or add a flat wheel to the motor. I would like to get it to where I could drill using a mill end (right?) into a part spinning in the chuck. That has some application with what I do a lot in my shop.Ideas? Manuals? Drawings?Burt _____________________Miller Syncrowave 250Millermatic 211Miller 375 Plasma Cutter Hobart Handler 12010FtDrillBit.com
Reply:You can get a Jacobs chuck with a Morse taper end to fit in the tailstock and then you can drill with it.  You should be able to pickup a cheap drill chuck for under fifty dollars.  Best not to disassemble.  If it ain't broke don't fix it.   It is only once and awhile that you need a small lathe on a welding project.I have done things like drill a hole in the back of a jobber drill then machine the end of a drill rod down to match the hole.  I could then fit the pieces together and weld.  I then had a long drill bit for making holes through door casings for burgular alarm wiring.  There is no great accuracy required and that little machine can do those jobs.
Reply:Definetly don't scrap it. If anything, donate it to a museum! That's a piece of history.-AlexSears/Craftsman 230A Buzzy BoxSears/Craftsman 180A Buzzy BoxChicago Electric 80A InverterALL STICK...ALL THE TIME!I spent a lot of time with the square peg and round hole.
Reply:If someone cant see how usefull this lathe will be with a littie work you have never been around a lathe before. Its old but it would be very usefull if you dont have one.I would have killed to have it at one time.Fix it up and it will always be worth somthing. This country was built with Babbit Bearings. Babbits old skool but stil good.
Reply:PLEASE for the love of GOD do not scrap it  That IS a piece of history!! I collect vintage lathes, mills, drill presses, grinders, etc. and would love to have it! Even though I already have 12 lathes, I would still gladly drive down there ,from Ohio, and buy it from you.Dont believe all the b.s. about it's age, I'm sure with a little tlc you can find a use for it.If not,it would still look good in your shop
Reply:Take a Google peek at "babbit bearings". You really don't know until you pull the bearing caps if they are babbit or not, bronze bearings were also used by some turn of the century machines. These are "fluid film" type bearings and are still used in power generating turbines, very large compressors, etc. Also the steel shelled automotive bearings have a very thin plating of babbit metal on the inside.If they are babbit and have too much clearance they need attention. I'm not a fan of machining the caps as that drops the spindle height and then the tailstock would need machined for the world to be "right". Truth is, it's done though, and the machines are put quickly back in service and work well enough.Matt
Reply:Matt , you stole my thunder... I was going to tell these people who don't appreciate' babbitt metal' they are using it everyday if they drive a car or truck... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babbitt_%28metal%29I certainly don't suggest that one needs to take it apart automatically... I was just saying that the ' dis ' that it had babbitt metal bearings ( possibly ) ( on a free machine ) was not a deal killer...... Many of the old reprint books by Lindsey ... tell how to rebabbitt stuff... and like Matt said ... it is still used on BIG bearing surfaces because the cost of other types which would support the same load would be cost prohibitive...Weldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.There is no thunder, Yes babbits work, and have been around for years......BUT have you ever fixed a old turn of last centrury babbet bearing? I restored a punch press about 10 years ago and the babbits were a pain. On a lathe where it is under constaint load and rpm which means needing to be changed eventually ( and probably right now looking at the condition )  I will repeat not desirable.In  a week I use my lathe 3-4 days out of the 7, that would sit in the corner for me and take up space, and eventually I would get motivated to drag it down to the barn where it would sit.The old overhead belt drive wouldn't bug me if it was bigger, and I could even work around the bearing shortcomings. But that lathe is like restoring an old Atlas or Craftsman lathe, WHY they weren't a good lathe new and restoration isn't going to fix that.Before you restore that, run a spread sheet on cost ( realistic ). When you get that total take that $ amount and see what that will buy you used.
Reply:Fred, why are you comparing a total restoration with the concept of taking it to the scrap heap to get only what its weight in metal is ?    Many people enjoy fixing up old things....and it does not have to be restored to museum quality... to be USEFUL for some kinds of things... as I mentioned... it can be used for turning wood... Since his buddy knew enough not to scrap it.... I trust he will not do that... and there is no shame in saying ' I , for whatever reason ' do not want to mess with it... and give it to someone else... but scrap it is NOT....as I am pleased to see I am not the only one who feels this way...Weldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.
Reply:GBM, No it isn't scrap material, even if I did say so to the original poster's two options of either fixing it or, due to the cost and labor involved, taking it to the scrapyard. What it is is a small working envelope lathe in sorry shape weighed down with an extremely bad design...even for it's time period. As for a wood lathe, maybe, if you can actually find a way to mount a drive center in that headstock...I've seen no mention as yet that it has a Morse taper thru hole. Matter of fact I think fredschrom came up with far better ideas for uses than your idea of a wood lathe. Otherwise, its a half way good exercise/instructive lesson...be better if it had an apron, half nuts, back gears and other bits and pieces of a metal lathe work learning about, not a bad paperweight, but it's never going to be more than a very limited metal lathe. Truth of the matter, fresh out of the factory it was never more than a very limited metal lathe. I do think that lathe would be very instructive teaching economics though.Lincoln PrecisionTig 275Miller 251Miller DialArc 250Bridgeport millHossfeld bender & diesLogan shaperJet 14 X 40 latheSouth Bend 9" 'C'Hypertherm 900Ellis 3000 band saw21"Royersford ExcelsiorTwo shops, still too many tools.
Reply:A very good resource for information on Lathes, Mills etc iswww.lathes.co.uk(I have no connection with the site)
Reply:Most of the SouthBends you guys are talking about have Babbit bearings in them. Nothing wrong with it.
Reply:Everyone starts from somewhere. If I'm correct in the assumption the lathe is a 2nd operation purpose machine, that would be where the young lathe hand started in the shop.If so, it would be set up and used for just one or 2 simple things. That might be sizing rounds before the real lathe hands got it for finish work, or it may be to simply face, chamfer, groove or break edges after the lathe hands finished the detail work. This is the way small shops could do small production without breaking the bank.2nd op lathes were easy to set/clamp stops on, so a shop could work with limited skill if the need required.Sure enough if you want to thread it'll be with a die or a releasing die head, or if you need a compound for short angles your going to roll your own. Master slides for clamp down are cashy but still available IIRC.The OP needs to take a good look at the cross slide to see if it's just held down to the saddle with capscrews. If so, you can make it act like a mini boring mill if you want too. Or place any tooling you could dream of on the flat surface (I'm thinking of boring rod ends etc. here).MattLast edited by Matt_Maguire; 01-26-2012 at 08:29 AM.
Reply:" Babbit bearings in them. Nothing wrong with it." No there isn't unless you need to fix them.Again I will return to the dollar side of this, unless you have a 1 to 1-1/2 HP motor laying around figure the cost. The time, labor to get it hooked up, no telling exactly how much that will cost. Hours derusting and getting the tailstock and the ways cleaned up. No one suggested a museum quality restore just get it working. You said everything moved freely good to a point, put a guage on it and see how much slop it has on the spindle that moving freely could be just worn out.Here is a Logan on sale on our local CL....$525 : http://spokane.craigslist.org/tls/2816485649.htmlThe Logan will run circles around the relic your looking at, its not about the bearings its about a good design that has threading capability, backgear, power feed.No I never said scrap it, look in my posts, it has uses, me I would make a tubing notcher out of it, as I have a two drill presses and if I get another its going to be a radial and do annular cutters.And before anyone gets excited about me axeing the lathe, I like to restore equipment, done many pieces look at this tread : http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=74991But restoring a old piece of equipment takes both time and money. I have maybe 60-80 hours or better in the above, and parts I had a new motor, mag starter, all the electrical except cable clamps. I still bought bearings (3), belt, steel, vise, and hardware over $300 easy. And when I restore something I have a clear goal in what I want, and what uses I have for the piece of machinery. And that lathe in brand new condition, with a motor mounted I still wouldn't use, yes I have a lathe and why would I even consider using that when my lathe does so much more.If you have time, and enjoy restoring old stuff as a hobby go for it, if you want a real lathe and want to work look for something like the Logan, about the same money in the long run.You can't make a silk purse out of a pigs ear and that lathe has seen its best days as a lathe.
Reply:OK, another buddy came over last night to cut some stock on my plasma. He is good with old machines and helped me remove the (?) from the tailstock (told you I don't know anything about lathes, yet). We tried to remove the dead center but so far no luck. I'm assuming it can be removed and then use the Jacobs chuck (look at picture 4 http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=34703  I have the exact same chuck). Trying not to damage anything, and so far no money spent. So keep the suggestions and ideas coming. Remember, I have no expectations of making money using this lathe in a production shop. It is for learning and fun of restoring at this point.Thanks for all the posts. I did not expect to have this much interest in an antique. But then I'm almost an antique myself.Oh and while writing this, Matt asked about the capscrews on the cross slide. I'll look tonight. Thanks.Burt _____________________Miller Syncrowave 250Millermatic 211Miller 375 Plasma Cutter Hobart Handler 12010FtDrillBit.com
Reply:Hi, Fred.I had already enjoyed reading your post about the ShopSmith. My dad had exactly that same machine from the the '50's. My brother gave it away a few years ago. I wish I had thought about using it that way.And I do appreciate everyone's comments about this lathe not being economical to fix. I don't expect to spend much money on it, but I'm not expecting it to pay me back.Burt _____________________Miller Syncrowave 250Millermatic 211Miller 375 Plasma Cutter Hobart Handler 12010FtDrillBit.com
Reply:A couple of last thoughts. A belt drive lathe is a very good starting lathe, they are much more forgiving than a gear head.One collecting tooling, cutters yes, but a toolholder no ( check out the price of them), whatever size that is ( I suspect a AXA size ) will probably be too small downstream for another athe.And nobody asked the question and I suspect the answer is no, do you have a lathe and mill? If not restoring that is going to be more costly as things I would make (fabricate) you can't or at best take 10 times as long to do.Again I wouldn't scrap ( I am opposed to scraping any old piece of machinery ) it I would just figure out a better purpose for it.
Reply:" My dad had exactly that same machine from the the '50's"Funny the shopsmith was my Dad's who passed away about 40 years ago, I used it for a couple of years then drug it around for years cause I wouldn't scrap it because of the Dad heritage.It has a good purpose now though.
Reply:Fred, again thank you for the comments.As stated before, if I had a good lathe and mill, I'm not trained at all on either. Man I wish I did know how to use them. I'm always amazed at what you guys know how to do and the work you do.So my objective is not so much to use it as a lathe as to use it to bore holes in the end of round stock. If I got to that point I would be pleased. What size motor would be required? I have a 1/2 hp and a 3/4 hp. Any idea what size pulley I would need on the motor?Burt _____________________Miller Syncrowave 250Millermatic 211Miller 375 Plasma Cutter Hobart Handler 12010FtDrillBit.com
Reply:Originally Posted by drujininMost of the SouthBends you guys are talking about have Babbit bearings in them. Nothing wrong with it.
Reply:Of your two motors the 3/4 HP, but it really needs about 1 -1/2 to 2 HP to do it right. A thought to remember also is lathes are like air compressors they start under load. If you get around to doing the repair on this try to figure out a way to add a clutch ( used for lack of a better word ). It doesn't need to be complicated just something to engage and disengage the drive pulley quicky, doing that you could get by with a smaller motor, check the service factor on your motor also before locking yourself in as a light duty motor will eventually give up the ghost although the clutch above will certainly help a lot.
Reply:Go with Fred's 'clutch' idea, but think jackshaft instead as this would have been the way that lathe was originally run off a lineshaft drive and the way most early manufacturers went when lineshaft drives were replaced with dedicated motorsLincoln PrecisionTig 275Miller 251Miller DialArc 250Bridgeport millHossfeld bender & diesLogan shaperJet 14 X 40 latheSouth Bend 9" 'C'Hypertherm 900Ellis 3000 band saw21"Royersford ExcelsiorTwo shops, still too many tools.
Reply:Oops I missed the pulley part, thats one one of the reasons I am not excited about this project, you are going to have to keep the original pulleys or reengineer a v belt system with steps to keep your variable speed.Your motors also might not work, I think your going to need a 1125-1150 RPM motor or possibly a 1725, once you know you motor speed you need to figure out your final RPM of the spindle then work it backwards to get your correct speed at the spindle.A typical new lathe runs at 70-1400 rpms ( 60-1200).So what you need to do is get diameters on all the pulleys there and the drive big one and match it up my guess is around 2 1/2 to 4 inch and you are going to choke when you see the price on the price of a flat belt pulley, definately figure out size and work ebay, CL or a used machinery dealer.I will see if I can get under my lathe and get some diameters as a baseline.
Reply:Fred, take a look at that picture I just posted. You can easily get away with a V-belt motor pulley to jackshaft flat pulley connection.Lincoln PrecisionTig 275Miller 251Miller DialArc 250Bridgeport millHossfeld bender & diesLogan shaperJet 14 X 40 latheSouth Bend 9" 'C'Hypertherm 900Ellis 3000 band saw21"Royersford ExcelsiorTwo shops, still too many tools.
Reply:Yeah I was just looking at it, but I would need to see some better pictures of the pulley spindles, maybe a coupler to fit on the end to convert it to a smaller ID spindle, or maybe taking that one apart and replacing the drive pulley. Without a real up close inspection with a ruler and my calipers I would hesitate on comment though. But getting on a V-belt would certainly be cheaper and easier, its just the drive sheave with is sitting next to the vertical pole might need some fiddling, unless the coupler worked out but I don't think it will as I don't see much shaft sticking out the end.Definately doable but I see the best ( or more) part of a $100 in belts, sheaves etc, and thats not touching the shaft.
Reply:Here is a better picture for you. Looks like a seprentine belt was used from the motor to large pulley connection...a two speed at that, but a V-belt would work almost as well and be completely serviceable.http://www.wswells.com/photos/1936_4.../after_11.htmlLincoln PrecisionTig 275Miller 251Miller DialArc 250Bridgeport millHossfeld bender & diesLogan shaperJet 14 X 40 latheSouth Bend 9" 'C'Hypertherm 900Ellis 3000 band saw21"Royersford ExcelsiorTwo shops, still too many tools.
Reply:WOW, somebody did a nice job restoring. And yes that would work good.
Reply:Burt, with the jackshaft mechanism, the 1/2 hp will work well. It won't have a whole lot of grunt, but it will keep you out of trouble. I believe my South Bend originally came from South Bend with a 1/4 hp motor. I replaced it with a more modern 1/2 hp motor, but only because the old gal was on its last legs.I would still caution you that the lathe you have, while a freebie, will run you about as much to get back up on its feet as a better candidate that can actually do some real work. The one you have now will produce bushings and the like, but without back gearing or a method of cutting screw threads it is going to be a very basic lathe.My old 'C' model South Bend. Attached ImagesLast edited by WyoRoy; 01-26-2012 at 10:37 AM.Lincoln PrecisionTig 275Miller 251Miller DialArc 250Bridgeport millHossfeld bender & diesLogan shaperJet 14 X 40 latheSouth Bend 9" 'C'Hypertherm 900Ellis 3000 band saw21"Royersford ExcelsiorTwo shops, still too many tools.
Reply:Missing option:Make a rotating welding positioner out of it. Nice for bevelling pipe practice coupons if you or someone you know wants to stay ready for pipe testing. Also handy for polishing shafts and other crude-but-useful work.Instead of bothering to seek "precision", just get it turning and use it for NON-precision tasks. If gets a spatter bath it doesn't matter.
Reply:would be a cool old machine to convert to a small cnc lathe, looks like it would be pretty easy too...only downfall would be the babbitt bearings..  You could clean it up, put some paint on it and sell it to add money to a newer lathe, someone will buy it, many people love collecting old machinery and  with some work that would be a nice piece to add to someones collection..  you could put a simple 2 or 3 pulley setup on it, and use like a 1 1/2hp or 2hp motor on it with vfd to control rpm..Last edited by brucer; 01-26-2012 at 01:42 PM.tackleexperts.comwww.necessityjigs.comhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/mach...dingequipment/
Reply:Ref my #33 post. I need to remove the dead center and use the chuck, assuming that will work.Is the dead center tapered into the shaft(?) and should it drive out, is there a trick to it, or just heat and mainstrength?Burt _____________________Miller Syncrowave 250Millermatic 211Miller 375 Plasma Cutter Hobart Handler 12010FtDrillBit.com
Reply:If your tailstock is working right you should only need to screw it all the way closed and it will force the live center out.