Further info/ Stuck SA 200 ??

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After dissasembling and freeing a long water exposed and stuck Conti F163 I found the rings were extremely stuck so I replaced the rings w/ new. Cylinders even though honed , were pitted to the point a bore will be needed but wanted to know if the electrical end will weld before doing the motor. pitting was moderate in the area where the pistons had siezed but had no hard ridges after honing. Well I put it back together and it fired right up, runs fairly well and after some commutator clean up and a re flash it welds pretty good.  Now the bad part , it smokes blue pretty constantly, at first I was not surprised and figured a rebuild anyway. Machine will auto idle and rev on striking the arc. When it does strike the arc and rev I get a large plume of gray to brown smoke. I ran it a total of under and hour and probably under 45 min. I used about a quart and a half of oil. Even with a bore that is out of spec this seems excessive. The plugs were oily when I checked but did not foul, also the exhaust pipe has heavy black oily residue inside when I put my fingers in there.  Would a plug in the vent cause a condition that would push a lot of oil into the combustion chambers making it smoke and burn more oil then it should. I did not check the tube from the valve cover and it could be plugged. Is there any other venting associated with the crank case?  I will try to run it with the oil filler cover removed in the next couple of days when I get a chance. I am thinking that when the pistons come down from top dead center they may be pressurizing the crank case and pushing oil up the valve quides and cylinders even more than it should even with the wear. Any experience or input welcome, Thanks."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:If the cylinders were pitted pretty bad those pitted spots will hold a lot more oil than you would think. I would suggest a re-bore and maybe new pistons or sleeve the cylinders with your old pistons. like you said I would go through the valves again just in case to check for any blockage that may push oil where it doesnt belong. What year engine/welder is it you have? Mine is a 77' engine with a 57' generator. bigblueMy vintage equipment 1957 Lincoln sa 2001980's Lincoln 225 AC1952 F-2 ford truck1957 F-250 ford truck
Reply:This one is a 1982 , I also have a 68 that most of the bugs are out of but I suspect I need a new magneto coil. It runs for an hour then quits till it cools off."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:Originally Posted by kolot. . .I ran it a total of under and hour and probably under 45 min. I used about a quart and a half of oil. Even with a bore that is out of spec this seems excessive. . . .
Reply:I did check the end gaps on the rings and they were OK.  I staggered the gaps around the pistons, Does anyone know if there is a specific order of positioning on each ring.   I had the valves out and cleaned them as well and did not notice any pitting of the stems and they seemed pretty much normal for used. Funny thing is the engine does not miss, and seems to run well both on top and at Idle. Also welds pretty good.  I have at least established that the electrical end is OK. So it might be worth a rebuild, or and engine swap if I found one for the right price.Last edited by kolot; 12-17-2009 at 08:56 PM."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:OK, I think I blew it, I was looking at the online overhaul manual and it says ends of oil ring expander should be butted, I believe I overlapped them locking them in better, Butted seemed to large a diam. for the piston but I must have been wrong. Directions on ring package were a little confusing, They said make sure you can see each colored end of expander one red one green when installed. Directions also said either but Or "interlock" ends.   Anyone have experience with rings on the continental F163??   Guess I will tear it down again and hope I didn't do more damage. I think this may cause my symptoms if 3 piece ring is not installed right."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:I don't think the way you installed the oil control ring ( 3 piece ring) has anything to do with the engine using oil. The center piece of the multi-piece oil control ring is basically just a spacer for the two scraper rings.Miller millermatic 251Miller aircrafter 330st, wp201961 Lincoln SA200Ellis 1600 bandsawLogan 820 latheSouth Bend 13"Bridgeport M Head
Reply:Originally Posted by kolotOK, I think I blew it, I was looking at the online overhaul manual and it says ends of oil ring expander should be butted, I believe I overlapped them locking them in better, , ,
Reply:Yes, I had the expanders overlapped, seems to me this would decrease their over all O.D. making a looser fit in the bore. I tore it down this evening and changed them, did not see any further damage and all went together well. Will retorque the connecting rods tomorrow and hope to fire it over.  Are the lowest rings with the expander mainly for the oil control? I would have thought that all 4 rings being new would have caught the oil. When I pulled the head, it was just flooded with oil. The directions tripped me up, It said to but or interlock the expander. But it also said you should be able to see both colored ends ot the expander when installed. One end red and the other green. I originally thought they would not compress enough to go into the bore so I lapped them, tonight I fixed them and they compressed and went right in."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:Yes, I had the expanders overlapped, seems to me this would decrease their over all O.D. making a looser fit in the bore. I tore it down this evening and changed them, did not see any further damage and all went together well. Will retorque the connecting rods tomorrow and hope to fire it over.  Are the lowest rings with the expander mainly for the oil control? I would have thought that all 4 rings being new would have caught the oil. When I pulled the head, it was just flooded with oil. The directions tripped me up, It said to butt or "interlock" the expander. But it also said you should be able to see both colored ends of the expander when installed. One end red and the other green. I originally thought they would not compress enough to go into the bore so I lapped them, tonight I fixed them and they compressed and went right in.Last edited by kolot; 12-20-2009 at 11:48 PM."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:Originally Posted by imc188222I don't think the way you installed the oil control ring ( 3 piece ring) has anything to do with the engine using oil. The center piece of the multi-piece oil control ring is basically just a spacer for the two scraper rings.
Reply:Merry Christmas all,   I made the correction to that expander ring and what a difference it has made. No blue smoke at all, idle or high idle. I do get a quick puff of black smoke from idle to high idle but nothing like before. I ran it for a good hour and no blue smoke at all and no loss of engine oil on the dipstick.  Compression is from 65-85 among the 4 cylinders but it starts, runs and welds fine. I also set the timing with a light and it smoothed it out even further so I will run it for now. I can't wait to do a small job with it to pay for itself the first time out. Need to make about 350 bucks to break even. Should be able to do that pretty easy. Thanks for the input and another lesson learned. Butt the expander ring."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:Merry Christmas to you too kolot!Glad to hear of the improvement which was expected as stated in earlier posts.  The 65-85psi compression is a little low and is most likely due to the cylinder wall condition.  Can also be a result of poor valve sealing due to rusty/pitted valves/seats seeing as the cylinder walls suffered water damage.  Squirt some oil in each cylinder and recheck the compression.  If it comes up that indicates poor sealing rings.  If not - leaking valves.  Bottom line, don't rule out that overhaul once you make a little $$$ with it.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Does anyone know the proper compression for an SA 200 that is in good shape? I am guessing somewhere around 130."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400