Spray transfer MIG: out of position

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If I understood correctly, pulse can be used to allow MIG welding of steel and aluminum out of position.   So for those who do this.   Do you have recommended machine settings, pulse rates etc for doing this?   Any secrets, tricks etc?Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Hello soutthpaw, a short answer would say that pulse "aids" in some out-of-position welding. Aluminum is considerable different welding than carbon welding, you can achieve almost any welding position without a lot of difficulty and spray is the needed method of transfer. Surface tension is very high with aluminum and promotes this very well. Pulsing on aluminum "could" allow for higher travel speeds and deposition rates. Steel, on the other hand, is not as tolerant of out-of-position welding in the spray transfer mode. You can achieve overhead fillets and groove welds to some degree, but you won't be running any vertical-up welds anytime soon with great success. Even with pulsed transfers vertical welding with solid wires in modified spray-transfer is really a poor choice as many gas-shielded flux-cored wires will produce superior weld profiles and speed/deposition rates. That's my $.02 for the conversation. Parameters are all across the board and generally machine brand and type specific so listing any might be pretty useless. Best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:Modern pulse MIG welders have fairly simple adjustments, just the arc length (I think Miller calls it "trim") and arc force (I think Miller calls it Sharp Arc). Arc length is analogous to voltage in short-arc MIG, and arc force is similar to "pinch" or the inverse of inductance.As a general rule, when welding out-of-position you will want to lower the arc length and turn up the arc force compared to the standard settings. I haven't used a 350P so I can't recommend any specific settings.Also , what Alan said about dual-shield- its like a f***in' caulk gun. You can really stack iron vertical-up.JohnA few weldersA lot of hammersA whole lot of C-clamps
Reply:Ive only used fronius 270 pulse migs, which make it rediculously easy, you input the wire type and diameter, weld joint type and oriantation and thickness, and the machine picks the settings to suite, ive done hundreds of meters of vertical up in spray pulse with solid wire on offshore gas rigs with them, but theyre not a cheap machine, starti.g price is 7 gorilas in Aus.Sent from my LG-P716 using Tapatalk
Reply:You gotta be careful with duelshield.If you hold a 1/8" stick out with .045 esab 71x, and 25.5v, and don't chip your slag between passes, here's what you end up with...That is around a 6"x6" peice of 1/4" plate.Just a couple welders, big hammers, grinders, and torches.Work will free you.Men in dirty jeans built this country, while men in clean suits have destroyed it. Trump/Carson 2016-2024
Reply:I have a roll of dual shield that was in my 350p when I bought it,   But it says CO2 which would prevent spray?  Maybe I need a different dual shield wire?   More interested in doing solid wire spray though.Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Originally Posted by Silicon-basedModern pulse MIG welders have fairly simple adjustments, just the arc length (I think Miller calls it "trim") and arc force (I think Miller calls it Sharp Arc). Arc length is analogous to voltage in short-arc MIG, and arc force is similar to "pinch" or the inverse of inductance.As a general rule, when welding out-of-position you will want to lower the arc length and turn up the arc force compared to the standard settings. I haven't used a 350P so I can't recommend any specific settings.Also , what Alan said about dual-shield- its like a f***in' caulk gun. You can really stack iron vertical-up.John
Reply:Actually souttpaw, the fluxes and other additives that are used in most flux-cored gas-shielded wires will allow for a spray transfer even though the shielding gas may not contain argon. Best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:I'll agree that the 350P is like a caulk gun.  I used to say like a tiny miniture spray gun.  If you get the wire speed right and no slipping on the wire, you can get the wire to vaporize at a very controlled distance above the metal.  When it does vaporize, there is a distinct cone - just like the little symbols in the manual.For aluminum, it is of course pure argon, so no problem going in and out of spray (pulse).  Sharp Arc is more the frequency.  Kind of controls the width of the caulk gun.  You can hear the differences.BTW, the 350P has an induction setting as well for short arc only.  Doesn't seem to do much.  I have it set higher than the recommended and it still seems the spatter about the same amount.As for good starting numbers.  I'm not used to spray transfer.... so I liked sharp arc at 45, arc-length at 30  (more focused, less spray like).  As I got used to it, I have gotten closer to sharp arc of 25 and arc-length 50 (the recommended, middle ground settings).  I have experimented with outside corners with a sharp arc of 15 (spread the heat) - results were OK.  This was 1/8" aluminum.  If I look right now, sharp arc is at 30, arc-length is at 45. (aluminum).I still short arc all steel.  Just looks better.Con Fuse!Miller Dynasty 350Millermatic 350P-Spoolmatic 30AMiller Multimatic 200Hypertherm PowerMax 1000G3Miller Maxstar 200DX
Reply:I have had great success with pulse vertical up and overhead. Not exactly sure if Aevald is saying it cannot be done or exact reasons. If you have a reason it would be a poor choice I would like to hear it for sure. I did quite a bit of pulse 3G and 3F today but didn't take any pics. Also passed my 3G 3/8" and 1" using .035 and .045 wire respectively. -JonathanEdit: I have no idea why the pic loaded sideways. Gotta figure out your pic loading here.http://weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=926601&d=1417815533Last edited by Superior Welding; 12-05-2014 at 04:41 PM.
Reply:Just a couple welders, big hammers, grinders, and torches.Work will free you.Men in dirty jeans built this country, while men in clean suits have destroyed it. Trump/Carson 2016-2024
Reply:I will say though that if using pulse for vertical up on steel that you need to be hot enough for good penetration. We had several tests fail using pulse on our Lincoln 350MPs due to lack of fusion and HAZ was brittle. Most would set the machine colder so it is easier to climb and the weld does not drop out. This causes your heat input to increase exponentially and can make the HAZ brittle and you will not have side wall fusion. Turning the amperage up quite a bit helped and they passed with flying colors.Jonathan
Reply:Holy moly Jonathan, that is a gorgeous weld! Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Well Johnathan, I had a nice lengthy information packed response to reply to your question about my lack of support for vertical up welding with pulse. Server went down and I lost all of it. I don't argue with success and I should have worded my response above better. Long story short, for heavy steel welding I believe that a conventional CV powered flux-cored gas-shielded process is often the better choice. Modified pulse spray transfer is well suited for lighter gage materials yet in my view does not justify it's cost or timeliness for the heavier materials. Preparation for pulse is generally much more important and time consuming compared to that of flux-core with regard to material cleanliness, mill scale, and rust. Some of the same could be said when materials are being plated, dipped, or otherwise coated when considering finish cleaning, usually less time at this end when you are using pulse/solid wire spray and the pre-cleaning/preparation involved.I really like the look of your work in the pictures, definitely nice stuff. On the other hand I wonder about the choice of process as the material appears to be pretty thick. Could you give the scenario for this and what other sort of work you're involved in to go along with this? Many shops that work with materials like that would definitely be welding with larger diameter wires and the flux-cored gas-shielded process. Best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:Allen,Here is another picture of Jonathan's work.Unless I'm mistaken, it's a 3G on 3/8" plate.Jonathan will explain it all when he gets a chance.I'm just posting this pic for him.JohnJust a couple welders, big hammers, grinders, and torches.Work will free you.Men in dirty jeans built this country, while men in clean suits have destroyed it. Trump/Carson 2016-2024
Reply:Yep John, that looks real nice and I am not knocking the technique and apparent skill of work that can be accomplished with good skills, good equipment, and craftsmanship. I like to frame things another way though, if I am employing a number of individuals and expecting them to complete work effectively and efficiently I hope that process choice is considered when the work is done. If there are two shops competing for work and one of them is employing the most effective process to accomplish that work they will likely be the ones that will end up doing it and will profit by it. Where modified pulsed spray transfer is needed it will be the thing to use and do the work with. Yet, if the work can be accomplished more readily and in a more timely manner due to the requirements of the work by using a conventional CV FCAW gas-shield process then that should be the way to go. When time is of no concern and deadlines or hours of work are not an issue I would love to GTAW weld everything. When I can carefully grind, clean, and position work I love to weld it with GMAW spray-transfer or with GMAW pulsed transfer. When I am feeling like slowing down and getting in some SMAW welding I like to weld with E7018. But when I am crunched for time and welding on something that can handle the heat and also position it or even if I can't, I love to get out some 1/16" or larger FCAW gas-shielded wire and go to town. The basics of all of this have a lot to do with the type of job, the type of material, whether it's for personal satisfaction, whether you are responsible for the shop producing the work, whether the bid/job specs. it out, and many other variables. So please understand that I am "NOT" saying that it can't be done, I question whether it might be the correct or best choice for some types of work. Best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:Allan,Thank you for the response. I can not argue against anything you said so far as the speed of FCAW and prep time required for GMAW-P. For us our procedures are all for S6 wire so the others are out of the equation. I will also agree that pulse requires extensive knowledge of what is going on and what all those setting mean. I am of the opinion that there are some that cannot use pulse to the fullest. I know of a few who hate it primarily because they don't know how to set it correctly. However, the OP was asking about pulse/spray which is typically considered hard wire thus the reason I posted pics and jumped in. Know that I was not trying to argue rather search out your reasoning. I can also say that there are quite a few fails on welding tests using the pulse method. As I mentioned earlier one has to be set hot enough, typically above 100 amps before becoming effective.As for the pic John posted, that was a practice piece when we were playing with our new Fronius machine. You can see a distinct difference in the weave spacing. We were playing around with all the settings seeing what they did and divided the plate in half for the root an fills. The top had a bead that almost fell out on me and was extremely humped up. Not bad looking considering what was underneath. We are a R&D facility so we generally have the liberty of time. We do not sell rather make custom equipment for solutions for our parent company. With that said we are not necessarily looking for the fastest speeds in our welding so we use at max .052 wire. You mentioned the plates seem thick. Yes, that plate was something like 3-4" thick and that is just the root pass. I believe it received a 3/4" fillet. Also that particular bracket does not see a tremendous anmount of force and was welded all the way around. Most of the material we weld is 4" and less but I have welded on some 6". For that thick of plate we are using the .052 and could probably step up to 1/16" if needed. -JonathanLast edited by Superior Welding; 12-05-2014 at 09:09 PM.
Reply:Thank you very much CEP!!
Reply:Hello again Johnathan, a part of my response to soutthpaw's post was to say that a lot of folks are inclined to go for the bell's and whistle's parts of certain types of equipment and listen to a salesman's pitch and not fully consider their actual needs. I was not saying that soutthpaw cannot benefit from his latest machine purchase, if he is willing to put in the time and research how to best apply it's uses he will be thrilled to have it. I have been in facilities where the work warrants the advanced equipment that they are using and they use it to it's fullest potential. That makes good business sense and positions them well for the types of work that they do. I have been to other facilities where the opposite is true, they have an advanced process machine and are using straight CV mig from it. The really sad part of this is that the work that they are doing would benefit tremendously from their equipment's capabilities if they invested the time and effort to utilize it. This company had the Lincoln 350 MP systems with STT (surface tension transfer).  You essentially hit the nail on the head though. You have to understand all of the machine's capabilities and work,research, practice, to capitalize on it. Unfortunately, in many cases the manufacturers do a rather poor job of providing the information that is understandable and would serve to make this happen.The majority of my work experience with advanced process welders has been of the blue variety. I have had additional experience with the purple ones and have had limited experience with the Lincolns and the Fronius. There are a host of others out there, especially from the Europeans but I am not experienced with them. My personal favorite would have to be Fronius due to their abilities and reliability, price tag places them out of reach for us though, bang for the buck mentality. We have a considerable selection of the Blue variety but not currently a 350P, instead we have an Invision 352 MPA with a D74 feeder, alumapro gun on one side and a conventional gun on the other. Additionally we have 8 350MPa's with S74 MPa Plus feeders and we've got 2 TA Powermaster 320SP's with smart guns (the smart guns have digital controls housed on the handles of the welding whip), these machines are also capable of feeding aluminum wire through the whip without a push/pull system. I've mentioned this array due to what you said with regard to understanding, knowing, and having the ability to work with these various systems to truly understand what they are capable of. The terminology often changes even within the same manufacturer, hidden menus abound, descriptions of what functions do and how they affect the weld output of the machine and the resulting weld bead can boggle one's grey-matter. They have their place but not everyone will benefit from their capabilities. Best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:Originally Posted by aevaldHello again Johnathan, a part of my response to soutthpaw's post was to say that a lot of folks are inclined to go for the bell's and whistle's parts of certain types of equipment and listen to a salesman's pitch and not fully consider their actual needs. I was not saying that soutthpaw cannot benefit from his latest machine purchase, if he is willing to put in the time and research how to best apply it's uses he will be thrilled to have it.
Reply:Definitely agree there Doug, true journey-level welders know much more than how to plug in a machine, pull a trigger, or clamp a rod. Best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:Yeah, I'm just trying to get ideas on using a feature I've never had on any of my machines before.  This way I have more knowledge when I get a chance to experiment with the fancy stuff.   I may never need or use pulse MIG on an actual project but it is fun to learn new stuff.   Lots of great info in this thread BTW  Thanks.  I haven't even moved past using the default MIG settings on this machine yet.    Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Originally Posted by aevaldDefinitely agree there Doug, true journey-level welders know much more than how to plug in a machine, pull a trigger, or clamp a rod. Best regards, Allan
Reply:To add again, I too have the salesmen who try to flatter me with all these advanced features to sell the machine. In my opinion these features not only confuse and frustrate the buyer but can give the welding company a false bad name because now you have a customer that is frustrated with this "awesome" machine who will put it down. However, some of these features will in fact help mask then lack of skill for a noobie. Look at Lincoln's Power Mode. While it takes knowledge to set it up if I were to dial it in for someone who is inconsistent this setting will help mask their problems in theory making them appear like a better weldor. Another example is all the synergic and auto set settings. Gone are the days of starting from scratch. Now beginners can simply move one knob and everything will be adjusted for them. Note that I am not saying these settings are perfect but it sure gets them in the ball park. -JonathanFollow me on Twitter @_JonathanLewis and Instagram @superiorwelding
Reply:Last set of welds I did with the 350,  something was off,  couldn't figure it out till I realized I read the settings for C100 while using C25.   Heh, at least I knew something wasn't right...Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250Originally Posted by soutthpawLast set of welds I did with the 350,  something was off,  couldn't figure it out till I realized I read the settings for C100 while using C25.   Heh, at least I knew something wasn't right...
Reply:Pulsed sprayed hard wire (70s-6) horizontal.
Reply:The root,  1/8 gap, 1/32 land,  short circuit
Reply:Down hill root (on a 45) 1/8 gap.Up hill fill (a little to hot).Got it dialed in just right.  #19 done straight up hill vert.
Reply:The temptation to blame this on this wire was great.  Turned out it was my fault for not running it hot enough.
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Reply:I use pulsed spray mig all the time.  Settings are machine specific.  The thing I do is go by wire speed and size. Then get the machine to weld properly.I have a lincoln V350 pro.  I pick the process and wire size   Then I set wire speed on the feeder.   I then set wire speed on the machine fine tuning it for my preferred arc length (trim).    There is a wave control that is pretty much pinch.Aluminum, I do the same except there  is no wire speed readout on my spool gun, so its poke and hope.  Out of position?  HECK YES.I find some interesting things.  I can run .030 wire up to 700 ipm and still get a good weld.  I can run ,045 down to 75 ipm and get a good weld. I can turn .045 way up and slice steel with the arc.Changing welding positions can require changing settings.   Arc length is different for a groove than a fillet.Forehand for best gas coverage.Anything too big to TIG weld with 200 amps gets pulsed spray in aluminum.I have used 98% argon with 2% o2 and 92% argon with 8% Co2.I prefer the 92/8 for more control.    The 98/2 is HOTTER and more difficult to control the weld on lower settings.Use it, play with it, get to know the machine.  I use pulsed spray steel as much as I can.   Steel for pulsed spray needs to be as clean as tig.Last edited by David R; 12-13-2014 at 12:07 PM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.