lincwelder 225

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i have a lincwelder 225 that i am having trouble with. the engine runs good, ac plug works, and welds. but when on low idle, the governor solenoid will not de-energize when you strike an arc to allow the motor to idle up. the solenoid stays pulled in keeping the engine at low idle even under welding load.if i idle the motor up to high idle and un-hook the gov. it idles up but then when i strike an arc it seems to bog the motor down a little too far, causes me to have toturn the amps up higher than i should to get a decent weld because rpms are a little too low.
Reply:Rather than turn the current setting up higher than needed you should turn the Auto Idle to "OFF".What is the units Code #?Do you have a manual for it?  If not, go here http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Cat...ualsearch.aspx to download it to have to refer to for prper operation and troubleshooting.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:yes i do have all the manuals from lincoln electric, code # is 5574., i can just turn the auto idle off, by setting it to high idle. the rpms go up like they should, but still when i strike an arc the motor seems to bog down a little far to me. any ideas what can cause this?
Reply:Sounds like governor or carbuetor or a little of both.Over time, governor springs loose tension which results in sluggish response.  A primary item on my parts lists for an older driver during a refurbish or major tune up is a replacement governor spring and carburetor overhaul kit.On the Onan, to adjust the responsivness of the governor one simply relocates the governor spring to a lever hole further away from the governor shaft.  Adjust one hole at a time until the desired performance is achieved.  If moved too close to the shaft, irratic operation (surging) will result.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:well, when i put it on high idle te motor will rev up to higher rpm like it should but still when i strike an arc it bogs down pretty bad. i dunno if i have the high idle rpm set high enough to weld or not....when i got it, the rpms on high idle were very high to me...sounded too high so i adjusted high idle rpm. could something being wrong with the generator causing it to bog the motor down when i strike an arc?
Reply:First of all, I told you incorrectly the direction in which to move the governor spring to increase sensitivity.  It is closer to the governor shaft to increase sensitivity.  Earlier CCKA engines had an adjustable governor spring anchor bolt on the governor lever rather than a series of holes to adjust the sensitivity so you'll have to use whichever your unit is equipped with.  Also, make absolutely sure the throttle linkage is free and not binding as this would cause a responsiveness issue and make sure the carburetor is properly adjusted.Second, it is essential that you determine the proper engine speed or it may be bogging down as a result of too little power to overcome the load when stricking an arc.  In the absence of a tachometer, one can get it close by adjusting the engine speed to yield the OCV (open circuit voltage) as listed on the faceplate.Third, remember the governor spring mentioned in my first post?  Even the Onan manual states that if all adjustments and efforts to correct a poor responsiveness condition are unsuccessful, replace the governor spring as they become fatigued over time.Finally, it could the the engine is just tired and in need of an overhaul in which case it should be exibiting excessive blow-by and likely burning a considerable amount of oil.  However, as you haven't indicated this to be so I have to believe the problem is still governor and/or carburetor related.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:This turned out to be cross-post, basically covering the same things DuaneB just did, but here it is anyway.2000sdoodie - Sounds like you're thinking that the engine is being overloaded, and that the droop is not a control issue at all?You could try to overide the governer to see if  R's can be maintained that way.Be very careful of overspeeding.About how many amp load when this happens?Could you try to burn some 1/16" electrode to see if  this an issue with a lighter load?Sorry to say, the engine may be weak, or at least badly out of tune.Good Luck
Reply:yes if i under load have someone idle it up by hand this thing will burn a rod very nicely, if i have them hold the rpms at the level i feel is good when welding then i stop the arc it idles up what seems to be very high to me....but i have also read that these motors are supposed to be loud due to the high rpm that is required of them.
Reply:No way around it - ya gotta know what the engine speed(s) are to know what to do next.  No guess work here to get it right.Did you see my comment regarding checking the open circuit voltage at the weld outputs in lieu of a tachometer if a tach isn't available?MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:open circuit voltage.....how do i test?
Reply:Check OCV with a voltmeter (set for AC or DC as needed) at the weld output studs.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:i will check tommorrow when i get home from work i will also check the hertz at the ac/outlet and i will post the results tomorrow by 9:00pm.....if you can try and get on here around 9:00-9:30pm and maybe you can see the results and give some sort of idea of whats going on. I really appreciate you taking the time to help me out thank you very much.
Reply:Well if you have a frequency meter that's even better.  Set the engine speed to give ~115vac and ~60-62Hz at the AC outlets with no load and also the proper OCV at the weld outlets +/- 1-2 volts.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:if im not mistaken it should produce 115vac @ 50hz right? since it should only be around 3000rpm not 3600rpm...??
Reply:Sorry about that - I forgot to switch generator gears. You are absolutely correct on the 50Hz @ 3000rpm.  Good catch. MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:know anyone that has a good welding gas welder for sale for around a grand or 1200?
Reply:You giving up?  Haven't even started yet.You could take it over to Larry Burross (weldersales) in Dallas or make a day trip out of it and bring it down to Orange and we'll help you get it squared away.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:i might take you up on your offer! i would not be oposed to comeing down there to orange texas and see if you could help me out if i cant get it. but anyway i got the high idle set to about 50hz. well it flucuates between 49 and 50hz, is that ok? it seemed to weld ok to me, i had it set on 105 amps and welded a piece of quarte inch round bar to a piece of 1/8th inch plate...seemed to penetrate ok. did not just build up seemed to burn in pretty good. if this sounds decent to you then i think i could assume that the welder works ok. so my next question would be how do i get the auto idle to work properly?
Reply:Well the offer stands and a 1Hz fluctuation either way is fine.  The droop on these governors aren't all that tight and is normally be around 100rpm.So I take it you had to increase the RPM and the severe bog is gone?  Sounds like it may be welding OK from your description.  Any chance of posting a photo or two of some welds?As for the idler unit, the Lincwelder 225 used the R-57 vacuum idler and you can read up on it by downloading these:http://content.lincolnelectric.com/p..._IMS/IM179.pdfhttp://content.lincolnelectric.com/p...MS/IM179G1.pdfNormal causes of the R-57 not working is a dirty/sticking control "float valve" that results in a constant vacuum leak preventing the idler diaphram from retracting properly.Another cause is a dirty felt "plug" that is used to control the idler response.  If dirty or adjusted too tight, the diaphram chamber doesn't see engine vacuum and as such cannot retract properly.And of course there's always the possiblity of a bad idler coil or broken wire to/from the idler coil terminals.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:the diaphram pulls in fine and the solenoid works fine. the problem i have  is when arc is struck the diaphram will not release to let it idle up, i guess i would need to check under weld load whether or not the solenoid still has its 12vlts.?
Reply:If in fact the unit still has the R-57 idler and it won't release, it's likely due to a stuck float valve which is usually caused by gunk holding the needle in place.Does this look familiar?The float valve and seat that gets stuck closed.  Valve has to open to release the idler.  This one was stuck closed and has been cleaned with spray carburetor cleaner.If you review the IM179 manual you'll see where depending on the application - which determines the specific idler coil - maximum coil voltage ranges from just under 3vdc to just over 7vdc.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:so if the motor is not under load then the coil should not have power at all, allowing the plunger on coil to push the float valve closed? so that the engine vacume is pulling the diaphram closed which in turn holds the motor at idle.....then when the arc is struck and puts motor under load the solenoid is energized pulling the plunger in, then letting float valve open to allow vacume to escape thus letting the motor idle up? it has the same exact governor in the pic posted....i will try to post some weld pics tommorrow.....on 105a  it still seems to weld like its on 75-80 amps. this is with the fine adjustment turned up to ten.( this weld bead is compared to 100a on a cracker box lincoln 225 ac welder) i know that dc welds a little differnt ( better in my opinion.) but if i am welding some normal thin wall 1 1\2 square tubing together shouldn't i be able to burn through at 105a? i have to turn it up to 225a to do this.????
Reply:Actually it's when there's no welding current that the idler coil doesn't have any voltage.  The R-57 idler circuit is really a "shunt" type circuit in that the small gauge wires that run to/from it comes from the main generator (+) brushes and goes to the (+) weld output stud in parallel with the (+) weld output circuit.  As such, a small current passes thru the coil when an arc is struck creating a magnetic field that pulls the idler plunger away from the float valve causing the idler to release as you've described.As for the welding output issue, what condition are the generator brushes and armature commutator bars?  If the brushes aren't making good contact due to being stuck or if the commutator bars are severely tarnished that could explain the low output problem you're experiencing.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:what does the commutator bar look like? the brushes look good, looks like they are all making good contact.
Reply:Sorry about that - the commutator is what the brushes ride against and it's made up of individual "bars" that the armature windings are attached to.Excessive sparks from the brushes while welding indicates poor contact which can be due to a dirty commutator, worn brushes or weak brush springs.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!Something else to check is if both cylinders are firing.  Those Onans will run on one cylinder and seem fine but bog severely under load because it's running on half power.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:ocv is only 60v, faceplate says it should be 70v......what can cause this?
Reply:1) Engine RPM too slow.2) Dirty rotor slip rings (where the brushes run)3) Dirty Fine Current control rheostat (winding wire where the wiper brush contacts)MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:i have checked contnuity on all wires i can, all brushes are making contact at cummutator and slip rings, has one brush thats alot shorter than the rest that rides on cummutator but is still making contact. checked valve clearence on motor, needed adjustment, adjusted.....still need to put it back together. will let you know when i get done how it is doing. also will clean reostat contactor and pad before i put it back together. i still have a feeling that it is not going to work like it should. but we will see.
Reply:The shorter brush may be a result of a weak brush spring that allowed for excessive arcing and premature wear over time.  If it's not due to a weak spring, it may have broken and was refitted to the armature at some point in the past. ??I still don't see where you have confirmed the proper engine speed which if low will cause low OCV.  If engine speed is correct (3000rpm), another thing to check would be the fine current control rheostat resistance.  Unfortunately, I don't know if the M5090-R has the same 64OHM value that the M5090-C for the SA200s does.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:i set the engine speed by setting the hrts output at 50hz, that is the only way i could set it, i dont have a tachometer. now that i have takin all apart and got most of it back together i cant get it to start, charged both batteries, solenoid just clicks once when i push in the start button, not sure why. but none the less it doesnt spin the genny, may have a bad batterie, checked both at terminals on batterie and both read 12+volts
Reply:OK, now I remember you pointing that out.Starting problem could be a bad solenoid.  Check for voltage on the output post of the solenoid when you push the start button.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:2000,I sent member ccawgc a PM to see if he could assist with any suggestions on the issues you're experiencing with your unit.  I trust he'll have more indepth technical insight and information for the unit than I do.DuaneMM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:sorry guys this machine is one I have not worked on. I work mostly with welders that plug into the wall. I work on engine drives once and a while when our engine shop gets over loaded or its a high tech problem.I will suggest you call lincoln with your code number and briefly tell them what you have done and what your symptoms are and they might be able to help.
Reply:gentleman, i have finally got it fixed! I feel like its christmas! It welds great!, i just decided to put a manuel throttle cable on it to set rpm, set it by ear, checked ocv it was steady 70v, welded great. thank you guys for your help and support, now i will hopefully get a few jobs, build a few thingsand then post up some pics! any suggestions on how to get my first few jobs......entry ways?cattle guards?gates?