Too much heat welding 4130 Chromoly

admin

I'll try to make this as short as I can...One of the ONLY materials that I weld is 4130 chromoly, .085 wall to be specific. Most of my experience has been with a Miller Diversion 180, but I'm having to use a Lincoln Precision 185 square wave machine where I'm working for the next week or two. Setup is:100% argonLincoln PTA 17 torch#7 gas cupBrand new collet, collet body, gas cup, tungsten, etc.3/32 2% lanthanated tungsten (SHARP)1/16 er70-2s4130 .085 wall chromoly (squeaky clean and tight notching/fit up)Problem is, the heat area is HUGE with this machine for some reason, at least an inch wide. I normally weld .085 wall on about 85 amps on DC neg @ 10-15 cfm. Even if I set the machine down to 40 amps, it wants to burn through and the heat transfer is almost an inch wide, no matter how short I have the arc and no matter how good my notching/fitment is.From the reading I've done, I'm assuming going to a 1/16 electrode will help, but what else am I missing? I can feed this thing a ton of filler and it's still undercut, no matter how I adjust the gas flow, speed, amperage, torch setup, etc.Is the 3/32 electrode just flat out too big for what I'm trying to do with this machine? It seemed to be fine on my Miller. I'm having trouble melting the upper part of the overhang of the joints away with this machine, and I've never struggled with that using my Miller.Thanks in advance for any help and for taking time to read this.
Reply:Have no idea of your application.  Roll cage, other??  Assuming you are welding 4130 "N" condition, recommend the following:   Clean, clean, clean 4130 tubing and excellent fit up, scotch-brite the surfaces; 1/16" RED tungsten with #7 or #8 cup and gas lense, 1/16" ER70S-2 or ER80S-D2; Set at 100 Amps and pedal modulate with 12-16 CFM shielding. Had good results recently using a Lincoln Precision 375, but we were welding on .058 wall 4130 "N" with 1/16" RED tungsten and .045 ER80S-D2 filler.  No back purge or pre-heat necessary.  Post images for additional guidance."Discovery is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody else has thought" - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
Reply:Just a thought but have you tried a lass sharp tungsten with more amps?There is a thread here somewhere that shows the heat zone of a sherpend tungsten... Basically the sharper the tungsten the wider the heat zone. Sounds crazy but it's true!Real welders know how to penetrate!(Equipment)Whatever can be used to beat my opponent into submission!
Reply:Yep use a 1/16 tungsten. You can probably get away with an .040 red tungsten too.Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:I will get some pictures when I get back out to his shop in the morning. Yes, this is for a roll cage/tube chassis, and I'm not going any further until I'm 110% satisfied with how I can get all this going. I would rather call it off and drive all the way back up here with my own equipment rather than risking someone's life from some sub par welds. I can't stress enough how much I clean the material before I start welding. It's as clean as it could ever get. I have done everything you posted with the exception of the 1/16 Tungsten. The 3/32 tungsten I'm currently using is the RED 2% Lanthanated. No heat treating or back purging.Thank you for your quick response, do you have any other ideas about what could be my issue with this?Last edited by K1NGPIN; 12-18-2014 at 02:47 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by Dantheharleyman99Just a thought but have you tried a lass sharp tungsten with more amps?There is a thread here somewhere that shows the heat zone of a sherpend tungsten... Basically the sharper the tungsten the wider the heat zone. Sounds crazy but it's true!
Reply:I'm not real familiar with the square waves but I would assume it has some sort of arc controll or "dig" function. You could try turning it down all the way and see what happens. Honestly it sounds like your not using enough heat or possibly moving too slow, but without pics it's hard to say. Less amps= larger HAZ (heat affected zone)Real welders know how to penetrate!(Equipment)Whatever can be used to beat my opponent into submission!
Reply:Originally Posted by Dantheharleyman99I'm not real familiar with the square waves but I would assume it has some sort of arc controll or "dig" function. You could try turning it down all the way and see what happens. Honestly it sounds like your not using enough heat or possibly moving too slow, but without pics it's hard to say. Less amps= larger HAZ (heat affected zone)
Reply:Originally Posted by Dantheharleyman99I'm not real familiar with the square waves but I would assume it has some sort of arc controll or "dig" function. You could try turning it down all the way and see what happens. Honestly it sounds like your not using enough heat or possibly moving too slow, but without pics it's hard to say. Less amps= larger HAZ (heat affected zone)
Reply:Gamble, just saw your post, sorry. Should going to a 1/16 electrode fix most of this issue?
Reply:Originally Posted by K1NGPINGamble, just saw your post, sorry. Should going to a 1/16 electrode fix most of this issue?
Reply:Maybe the back side of the metal could be dirty. I don't see why u couldn't use a 3/32 red
Reply:Good thinking gamble! Could be helium mix
Reply:I use a 3/32" tungsten for all my 4130 welding, even down to .065" wall thickness.It sounds like you have a gas flow issue. You need to verify the gas flow at the cup of the torch.
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleYes and no. It's all you. The difference you are seeing could very well be the difference between inveter and transformer. I haven't used a transformer tig in a long time. I am guessing most of it is tungsten size but it could be you as well. I can do 2 soda cans with 1/8 or .040 or anything in between.Could also be heat input or how fast or slow you are moving like they said. Also are you sure there is no helium in the gas bottle? Check the label to be sure.
Reply:Originally Posted by ZTFabI use a 3/32" tungsten for all my 4130 welding, even down to .065" wall thickness.It sounds like you have a gas flow issue. You need to verify the gas flow at the cup of the torch.
Reply:Originally Posted by K1NGPINShould I still be able to feel argon leaving the cup of the torch with the pedal down? Or does the machine know not to open the valve until an arc is struck? I'm not familiar with the torch setup that's on this machine. Like I said, my personal torches at home all have the gas valve/knobs on them.
Reply:I don't guess I feel anything coming out of the torch at all now that I'm checking...just hear one "whoosh" sound as soon as I hit the pedal and then nothing but buzzing from the torch
Reply:Originally Posted by K1NGPINI don't guess I feel anything coming out of the torch at all now that I'm checking...just hear one "whoosh" sound as soon as I hit the pedal and then nothing but buzzing from the torch
Reply:15 cfm (what I have it set to). It will drop down after the machine sits for a second like normal, then when I hit the pedal the ball rises back up to the set cfm like normal.
Reply:U should be able to feel it coming out of the torch with you hand or put it up to you ear and barly tap the pedal and see if you can feel it hit ear and listen for it. If nothing then it will want to take the shortest path of resistance and come out before the cup
Reply:Make sure the torch cable is all the way in the machine and pull down the torch cover and make sure the connection between the torch and line are tight
Reply:All I can hear is buzzing from the torch...I don't even feel the initial "whoosh", but I don't feel gas coming out from anywhere else either. Just looked everything over really good and put threw some electrical tape around all the connections just to see also...same thing.
Reply:Originally Posted by K1NGPINAll I can hear is buzzing from the torch...I don't even feel the initial "whoosh", but I don't feel gas coming out from anywhere else either. Just looked everything over really good and put threw some electrical tape around all the connections just to see also...same thing.
Reply:Just tried that, it's good. I don't know if I mentioned this earlier or not but I tried turning the gas all the way up to 30 cfm earlier when I was testing everything and it made no difference as far as the HAZ goesOriginally Posted by K1NGPINJust tried that, it's good. I don't know if I mentioned this earlier or not but I tried turning the gas all the way up to 30 cfm earlier when I was testing everything and it made no difference as far as the HAZ goes
Reply:Not all the time, just when I initially hit the pedal....I wasn't sure if it was supposed to be a steady flow or not like it would be with a torch with a manual gas valve on it.
Reply:I didn't read all of the replies so excuse me if it's been said.Any chance the jumpers are wired for 208 volts input, but the machine is plugged into a service providing 240+ volts?Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Sorry Dave, I'm not exactly familiar with what you're saying. How can I test this to find out?
Reply:This is a manual for precision tig 185 machines:http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...82001339,d.cGUPage A-5 has linking information.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Originally Posted by K1NGPINNot all the time, just when I initially hit the pedal....I wasn't sure if it was supposed to be a steady flow or not like it would be with a torch with a manual gas valve on it.
Reply:I will find out...thanks for the idea.And thank you too ZTFab for your help and quick responses. I really appreciate it
Reply:Has the user of this machine ever noticed this problem before hand?Real welders know how to penetrate!(Equipment)Whatever can be used to beat my opponent into submission!
Reply:Are you sure you have the right filler?If I remeber correctly 70s-2 is for chromoly and 70s-6 is standard steel filler.Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleAre you sure you have the right filler?If I remeber correctly 70s-2 is for chromoly and 70s-6 is standard steel filler.
Reply:70S6 is and I thought s2 was for chromoly to where it didn't need to be heat treated after welding?Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Originally Posted by Gamble70S6 is and I thought s2 was for chromoly to where it didn't need to be heat treated after welding?
Reply:Originally Posted by Gamble70S6 is and I thought s2 was for chromoly to where it didn't need to be heat treated after welding?
Reply:I've always used 70s-2 for chromoly without any issues. As far as the owner of the welder, he has only used the machine to tinker with mild steel. He doesn't TIG much at all, just does a lot of MIG work.I'm really not concerned with the filler, I can even make a nice straight pass without it and the welds still end up grey and look burnt, no matter how the amperage is set and no matter what speed I use when making the pass.
Reply:Not to state the obvious, but you are on DC-, right? The only reason I ask is you mentioned "buzzing of the torch" twice. Unless you are pulsing, you shouldn't hear a buzz on DC- after the initial HF start.Mike ZanconatoZanconato Custom Cycles @mzank on Instagram
Reply:Originally Posted by zankNot to state the obvious, but you are on DC-, right? The only reason I ask is you mentioned "buzzing of the torch" twice. Unless you are pulsing, you shouldn't hear a buzz on DC- after the initial HF start.
Reply:Yeah, I was wondering if he was on AC.Mike ZanconatoZanconato Custom Cycles @mzank on Instagram
Reply:I also don't think the 3/32" tungsten is a big deal. I run that on 0.028" wall tubing. I prefer a 1/16", but a 3/32" is fine and tolerates a little more contamination compared to 1/16".Mike ZanconatoZanconato Custom Cycles @mzank on Instagram
Reply:Originally Posted by K1NGPINI've always used 70s-2 for chromoly without any issues. As far as the owner of the welder, he has only used the machine to tinker with mild steel. He doesn't TIG much at all, just does a lot of MIG work.I'm really not concerned with the filler, I can even make a nice straight pass without it and the welds still end up grey and look burnt, no matter how the amperage is set and no matter what speed I use when making the pass.
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleRight but some fillers will look grey and some will give better coloring at least from my experience.
Reply:Finally got a picture this morning, don't really want to post it since it doesn't look like any of my other work but it is what it is and maybe it will help get the machine figured out.I was in a hurry but it will have to work for now...YES I'm on DC negative lol. Pay no mind to the craters on the left, I just killed the amperage and yanked the torch away from it since they are just test passes. These are both with ER70S-2 filler, the weld on the left was done at 40 amps (just to test) and the weld on the right was done on 85 amps. The puddle acts the exact same no matter what the output is set to.Are there issues with this machine? I haven't had this much trouble making nice simple welds since I was a teenager. The heat is crazy and the arc is anything but steady. Last edited by K1NGPIN; 12-19-2014 at 09:35 AM.
Reply:Is your amperage set to remote?    Maybe try just setting it up for scratch start (if possible) and see if you can tell a difference when the amperage is adjusted.
Reply:Originally Posted by huntall6Is your amperage set to remote?    Maybe try just setting it up for scratch start (if possible) and see if you can tell a difference when the amperage is adjusted.
Reply:Can you crank the dial down to say, 20 amps an see how it runs?
Reply:And I do mean the dial, not just using the pedal. I would set the amps with the dial and just floor the pedal until you see a change in heat input.