Porosity/wormholes; is it bad sticks?

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I don't stick weld much, but Friday I tacked up a square tube frame, 2x2x1/8 with 3/16 flat bar corner gussets. All clean metal, scale ground off.  My LWS only had  "Inweld" 7018AC 3/32 in 5 lb packages; never heard of it, but his smallest package of Lincoln was 50 lbs, so I took a chance. I welded about half the job just fine; seemed cold at 90A but very smooth at 100A. Slag practically jumped off by itself, smooth beads and good penetration (I think; I'm strictly an amateur, but I do read a lot). Then Saturday I went out to finish the job. All hell broke loose. Sputtering and spitting, wormholes all over the place. Here are some pictures of a good bead (Friday) and a sh1tty one (Saturday) . From that point forth I could not run a decent bead. I quit trying, will have to grind out everything I did. I can't figure what went wrong. No changes in setup, weld prep, material.  Is it possible for rods to go bad _overnight_ ??? They were open in the garage, I don't have a rod oven. Just to see if the welder was OK I found a couple old Blue Demon 1/8 7018's, they welded just perfect on some scrap. Here are some pics of a bad weld next to a "good" one (OK not great, like I said I'm an amateur).  FWIW it's a Miller Dynasty 200DX, DCEP, 100A, arc dig 30. Appreciate any advice,Mike Attached Images
Reply:Put those rods in your kitchen oven over night. Or ground them out just before using one, and see if any of this makes a difference. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Usually the 7018 that I have used, put down a decent bead even when it was not stored properly.Was the mill scale the same on both samples ?The upper piece looks like it has scale on it.
Reply:Are your 2 pics above front and back welds? Top pic 1st weld, bottom pic 2nd weld?
Reply:Yeah I see what you mean, I didn't grind back scale far enough on the angled gussets to be well clear of the fillet. It was about the same on both samples, though. And I have not had trouble from that light scale on other projects (famous last words). I always had the same experience, old rods are maybe not "to code" but burn fine, unless they actually got soaked somehow or cracked. The one diff I keep coming back to is, the good welds were all within a couple hours of opening the vacuum-sealed pouch of new rods, and the bad welds after the rods sat out in the garage overnight. Another thing I just remembered; sputtering seemed more pronounced toward the end of the rod. A few times I struck and thought "OK, this one is maybe working better" for half an inch, but then it started heading south.  Originally Posted by BlueweldersUsually the 7018 that I have used, put down a decent bead even when it was not stored properly.Was the mill scale the same on both samples ?The upper piece looks like it has scale on it.
Reply:These two I believe were opposite corners from one another. The gussets join to corners of the square tube (welds are 135* obtuse fillets) Originally Posted by PipelinerAre your 2 pics above front and back welds? Top pic 1st weld, bottom pic 2nd weld?
Reply:This Miller backs off the juice when it thinks you've stuck the rod, too smart for me. Too late tonight, I will try the oven tomorrow. Thanks!  Originally Posted by CEPPut those rods in your kitchen oven over night. Or ground them out just before using one, and see if any of this makes a difference.
Reply:You are experiencing porosity. The main cause of porosity when using 7018 rod is from using too long of an arc. Too long of an arc causes your puddle to loose the shielding from the burning flux. Thus you get the porosity you are seeing. Try it again. Make sure you keep a very short arc when you strike up. Keep your strike up area close to where you want to start laying down weld metal. Keep your arc short all the way across your travel path and the porosity you are seeing will go away. Your going to have to grind off that weld before you rewelded over it to eliminate the porosity. There's nothing wrong with your rods, it's your technique combined with inexperience.Last edited by snoeproe; 12-29-2014 at 09:47 AM.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:I tend to maybe disagree on this one.Too long of an arc, wet rods, mill scale,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Everything I've built over the last 2 decades which can be welded in the flat position has been glued together with AC7018.  Never had trouble with it, always ran good.  Used to love it for multiple short welds because of the easy restrike.In the last 3yrs not so.  Something has changed, and it sure isn't me  I only run Lincoln, and I saw the change when the rods started coming from Mexico.  Maybe coincidental, but I just don't know.  Apart from chasing cheap labor, and maybe less stringent workplace/environmental regs, I'm wondering if Lincoln didn't start substituting ingredients in the electrode or flux.  It definitely doesn't run with any degree of reliability anymore."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:There's always a lot of advice when this problem crops up with AC7018.  But I wonder just how many of you guys ACTUALLY run a lot of AC rod.  I do (or did until now), and I've come to the point of abandoning it altogether due to these exact problems."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:It could just be the picture but the first weld was done left to right.  Second weld was right to left. Could be you need more practice holding a tight arc with right to left travel.Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:Originally Posted by SquirmyPugIt could just be the picture but the first weld was done left to right.  Second weld was right to left. Could be you need more practice holding a tight arc with right to left travel.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammI tend to maybe disagree on this one.Too long of an arc, wet rods, mill scale,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Everything I've built over the last 2 decades which can be welded in the flat position has been glued together with AC7018.  Never had trouble with it, always ran good.  Used to love it for multiple short welds because of the easy restrike.In the last 3yrs not so.  Something has changed, and it sure isn't me  I only run Lincoln, and I saw the change when the rods started coming from Mexico.  Maybe coincidental, but I just don't know.  Apart from chasing cheap labor, and maybe less stringent workplace/environmental regs, I'm wondering if Lincoln didn't start substituting ingredients in the electrode or flux.  It definitely doesn't run with any degree of reliability anymore.
Reply:Switch your dynasty to AC and run them.Some 7018AC does not run good at all on DC.Just a couple welders, big hammers, grinders, and torches.Work will free you.Men in dirty jeans built this country, while men in clean suits have destroyed it. Trump/Carson 2016-2024
Reply:I had to go to town to pick up some suds (beer nite), and I dropped by the LWS to pick up some MIG wire  Gonna fool with it a bit.Anyways...............Guy let me take home the new "Blue" lens they're making these days to replace the LEGENDARY one  "Check it out, see what you think, don't drop the hood"  I tried it, I hated it.  So much for the legend I guess.BUT, while trying it, I ran a bunch of AC rod to make my argument.  A mix of Lincoln AC, and some Hobart AC.  Both of the 7018 ilkI COULDN'T GET ONE STINKIN BAD BEAD"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Ran a couple of Excalibur beads for comparison................can't really tell the differenceNo prep, just weld.  Forget about all that stuff about clean, rust free, pristine, golden, metal.  Just put some down to see if I can replicate my argument.Now I feel like a moron"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:So I guess I'll quietly fold my tent, and limp back into the woods, tail between legs"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Next thing you know, I'll be touting the near orgasmic experience of running an inverter machineWHERE DOES IT END!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Zed,How old are you?Maybe, if you are my age, the next morning, you forgot to put on your glasses!He!!, sometimes I don't realize till lunchtime, that I forgot to put in my denturesHobart Beta-Mig 2511972 Miller AEAD-200LEMiller 250 TwinNorthern Ind. Hybrid 200Longevity Stick 140Longevity Migweld 200SThermal Arc Pak 3XR
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammSo I guess I'll quietly fold my tent, and limp back into the woods, tail between legs
Reply:Bill- I hear you, lets just say my kids all grown and gone, and leave it at that.  Lose my glasses plenty, but if I did I wouldn't find the stinger. Nor the welder, for that matter. Not that it's a good thing.Tx, mike Originally Posted by geezerbillZed,How old are you?Maybe, if you are my age, the next morning, you forgot to put on your glasses!He!!, sometimes I don't realize till lunchtime, that I forgot to put in my dentures
Reply:If it's ok I'd like to ask a question (I'm a complete newbie learning). Is your shop/garage heated all the time?  If not is condensation developing after the heat is turned off causing the rod to absorb moisture?  Just a thought.  I may be all wet (no pun intended)
Reply:Sometimes water doesn't have a huge effect on 7018. At the end of the root pass I got a lot of splatter. But the 2nd pass ran fine. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by zedOk Sam let's swap, you rejoice in my sh1t welds and I will b1tch about your smooth ones. Everybody wins. (But I'll keep my inverter thanks). Snoe- yeah that was one that flipped out at the start then settled down, but overall it was pretty random where it would "flip out". My main issue (I'm aware of) is estabilishing travel speed at start, and then at the end when I back up and snap out. I tend to geta little oversize toward each end. When I'm not having this issue, I mean.  I did some more playing around, put a double cheater in my helmet to get my face right in there. I think the suckers got wet. As in, chunks of flux randomly coming off the rod, half an inch from the tip, and blasting the puddle.  Oven-dry do-over is coming up. Thanks again everybody for constructive help.
Reply:Originally Posted by stevevIf it's ok I'd like to ask a question (I'm a complete newbie learning). Is your shop/garage heated all the time?  If not is condensation developing after the heat is turned off causing the rod to absorb moisture?  Just a thought.  I may be all wet (no pun intended)I've experienced the same thing.  Near perfect bead, then the very next will have worm holes/porosity.  I've marked it up to, me.
Reply:Just a guess but could be arc blow if you got some magnetism induced, changed the direction of welding relative to your work lead, etc.
Reply:Looks to me like grease,oil, or some other contaminant. Maybe yellow paint pen dribbles? That porosity is from the bottom up. JMO. I see that on dirty heavy equipment welds now and then.
Reply:I have on rare occasions gotten grease or paint residue bleeding from the opposite side.Just have to see if there is a cause that you can observe.
Reply:zedThe easiest method to replicate this porosity is with oil spattered/tainted flux - this not being the case . . .I have burned - tons of stick - but genuinely bad flux, I have only encountered a handful of times - it does occur.Pull a grip of rod out of the can, and roll flat on a smooth surface - align the bottom for roll.  Inspect the rods: Bottom-to-top for cracks, but especially for minute voids in the flux.  Superficially: the coating may look normal - this requires close inspection - Bad flux is rare . . .An occasional divot is reality - but voids can occur in streams - streams of defects/voids reduces coverage;then produces your happiness.If you find suspect rods - burn to test.  'Pick a Door' - product flaw, corruption, or technique?Info - Update . . .E70XX's Re-Drying temperature is a recurring issue.  Debate raged from: 20 year old rod out of the barn is fine, to displacing family dinner because the rods had to bake longer . . .  Standard oven heat is not high enough.'Book' specification has always been 800 degrees.  This the first time I have seen the the proper 'Re-Dry' temperature on a rod container.788 degrees F x 30 Mins.800 Degrees can be attained in a 'self-cleaning' oven.Opus
Reply:Well guys this is one for the X files. I cannot reproduce the problem today. Now I'm the moron. I tacked up T coupons from the rest of the 3/16 flatbar, no cleaning and zero prep, and ran 8  6" fillet welds. On one I found 3 little pinholes (second pic), but I think that might be where my elbow slipped off the bench. No discernible difference between rods I left out in the garage, and ones I cooked up with my chicken pie last night. Tested OK at 90A but flux came off better with 85A, so that's where I ran most of them. Still DCEP etc. Dunked to cool between passes. I still feel like these AC rods aren't running as "smooth" as they should be, they seem to hiss and spit, but today the welds look fine. (OK, well, about as good as I do normally).Might be grasping at straws, but thinking about Steve's question, today it was 26*F in the shop, a crisp sunny day; whereas when the troubles happened it was sloppy, wet and 50*F outside.  I know, I have also welded in rain sleet and tropical mist before, and never gave it a thought. But damned if I can find anything else that changed. Didn't even bother cracking open the Excaliber, didn't seem worth it. Nothing else on deck to weld for a while. Critiques, helpful pointers, conspiracy theories all welcome. Still puzzled,MikePics: single bead, close up of three pinholes, three-stringer fillet. All 2F going left-right.
Reply:One problem I've encounter a few times in the past with 7018 stick rods is that the flux wasn't applied the same thickness evenly all around the core wire.   It causes a condition known as "finger nailing" while you're welding.   At first you think you might be getting arc blow because the arc wants to wander off to one side or the other of where you want it to go.   And that's usually accompanied by more spatter in that direction and at times some porosity in your weld.  Especially if the flux was paper thin on one side and extra thick on the other side of the rod.   Even with a can of what's other wise good running rod you occasionally run into one or two rods that have this uneven flux condition.   About the only thing you can do if the flux on your rod starts finger nailing while you're welding is stop and throw that rod in your stub bucket and get a fresh one.   If you look directly straight on at the striking end of your rod you can see whether or not the core wire is centered in the flux coating.Last edited by HT2-4956; 12-30-2014 at 02:06 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by zedWell guys this is one for the X files. I cannot reproduce the problem today. Now I'm the moron. I tacked up T coupons from the rest of the 3/16 flatbar, no cleaning and zero prep, and ran 8  6" fillet welds. On one I found 3 little pinholes (second pic), but I think that might be where my elbow slipped off the bench. No discernible difference between rods I left out in the garage, and ones I cooked up with my chicken pie last night. Tested OK at 90A but flux came off better with 85A, so that's where I ran most of them. Still DCEP etc. Dunked to cool between passes. I still feel like these AC rods aren't running as "smooth" as they should be, they seem to hiss and spit, but today the welds look fine. (OK, well, about as good as I do normally).Might be grasping at straws, but thinking about Steve's question, today it was 26*F in the shop, a crisp sunny day; whereas when the troubles happened it was sloppy, wet and 50*F outside.  I know, I have also welded in rain sleet and tropical mist before, and never gave it a thought. But damned if I can find anything else that changed. Didn't even bother cracking open the Excaliber, didn't seem worth it. Nothing else on deck to weld for a while. Critiques, helpful pointers, conspiracy theories all welcome. Still puzzled,MikePics: single bead, close up of three pinholes, three-stringer fillet. All 2F going left-right.
Reply:I am betting on the humidity. There can be lots of moisture condensed on the steel without it being visible. I preheat the metal enough to drive off the moisture in that kind of weather. I also keep 7018s in Rod Guard canisters after i open a fresh can.JohnA few weldersA lot of hammersA whole lot of C-clamps
Reply:I still see porosity at the start of your bead. Too long of an arc my friend.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:I think it's your welder, let's trade straight up. Pm me your address, I'll be there in about 18 hours Thermal arc 211iCk flex-loc 150 & 130Clamps, saws & grindersHarbor freight 80 amp inverter
Reply:I have ran a lot of 7018. On a barge job once I was on a job for 15 days, 12 hour shifts and used AT LEAST a 50lb can of 3/16 rod per shift..... This is in Alaska in the sorta winter, raining, snowing freezing... Each day I would open a can and start burning. I knew it would be a good day when it layed in there great. If it didn't lay great I would grab a heater and start rotating my supply. After it was heated it ran fine. So I dunno, I don't know if water/moisture when being welded has much affect (IMO) but my theory is that it has an affect on it when it was made. If you are crazy concerned with moisture, cook the rods and then dip them in bees wax! They will keep for a lot longer. And you can use them underwater like I do!  But the pic shown looks like long arc for sure!
Reply:Originally Posted by zedWell guys this is one for the X files. I cannot reproduce the problem today. Now I'm the moron. I tacked up T coupons from the rest of the 3/16 flatbar, no cleaning and zero prep, and ran 8  6" fillet welds. On one I found 3 little pinholes (second pic), but I think that might be where my elbow slipped off the bench. No discernible difference between rods I left out in the garage, and ones I cooked up with my chicken pie last night. Tested OK at 90A but flux came off better with 85A, so that's where I ran most of them. Still DCEP etc. Dunked to cool between passes. I still feel like these AC rods aren't running as "smooth" as they should be, they seem to hiss and spit, but today the welds look fine. (OK, well, about as good as I do normally).Might be grasping at straws, but thinking about Steve's question, today it was 26*F in the shop, a crisp sunny day; whereas when the troubles happened it was sloppy, wet and 50*F outside.  I know, I have also welded in rain sleet and tropical mist before, and never gave it a thought. But damned if I can find anything else that changed. Didn't even bother cracking open the Excaliber, didn't seem worth it. Nothing else on deck to weld for a while. Critiques, helpful pointers, conspiracy theories all welcome. Still puzzled,MikePics: single bead, close up of three pinholes, three-stringer fillet. All 2F going left-right.
Reply:Originally Posted by OPUS FERROzedThe easiest method to replicate this porosity is with oil spattered/tainted flux - this not being the case . . .I have burned - tons of stick - but genuinely bad flux, I have only encountered a handful of times - it does occur.Pull a grip of rod out of the can, and roll flat on a smooth surface - align the bottom for roll.  Inspect the rods: Bottom-to-top for cracks, but especially for minute voids in the flux.  Superficially: the coating may look normal - this requires close inspection - Bad flux is rare . . .An occasional divot is reality - but voids can occur in streams - streams of defects/voids reduces coverage;then produces your happiness.If you find suspect rods - burn to test.  'Pick a Door' - product flaw, corruption, or technique?Info - Update . . .E70XX's Re-Drying temperature is a recurring issue.  Debate raged from: 20 year old rod out of the barn is fine, to displacing family dinner because the rods had to bake longer . . .  Standard oven heat is not high enough.'Book' specification has always been 800 degrees.  This the first time I have seen the the proper 'Re-Dry' temperature on a rod container.788 degrees F x 30 Mins.800 Degrees can be attained in a 'self-cleaning' oven.Opus
Reply:Originally Posted by RodJJust a guess but could be arc blow if you got some magnetism induced, changed the direction of welding relative to your work lead, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammVery seldom, if ever, is arc blow an issue with AC welding.  Matter of fact, arc blow is the reason you'll sometimes switch to AC, it'll run where DC won't.  Magnetism is another issue altogether.With a DC rod, you run into arc blow when welding towards a corner, welding towards "air", or welding complex multi shaped joints.
Reply:Thanks guys, learning a lot here, even if the original issue seems to have gone underground.  Many great suggestions. I did roll the remainder of the rods on the kitchen table, nothing obviously wrong to my inexperienced eye, other than a few divots & busted ends. I set those aside.I always bend the rod a bit at the stinger to get an angle. I keep the bend right close to the jaws, but noticed a scary amount of flux still breaks with these, up to 2 or 3 inches.  I won't burn that part, but wonder if it indicates this coating is extra delicate?Absolutely long arc probably accounts for the three pores (second pic; like I said, elbow slipped there!) and a bad start on the second bead of the three-bead (third pic). Where I did have control, though, the weld was no longer giving me the same fits as Friday. You are right I need to get much more consistent. Hard to get hood time; welding isn't my job. Circling back to Opus' three doors (contamination, consumables or technique) I tested T's with the flat bar, since that was where I'd obviously missed some mill scale. But I now wonder if I had oil or crap on the tube, in particular on the corners. Those got less aggressive grinding than the flats, else I'd burn through the 1/8.  Thinking back my good beads were mostly gussets to a flat face and tube on tube, most of the bad were a gussets on a tube corner.  Maybe weather and the unfamiliar brand of rod are total red herrings.  I don't have more of that tube but I will look closely at the unwelded corners on the project when I get back to the shop.  This is AC rod, but I'm running DCEP. Did not get around to trying it on AC.  But no, there's no magnets anywhere around. I align and fusion tack everything with TIG before switching to stick.  Speaking of day job, back to work, I promised results "by the end of the year" and had better make good. Happy and prosperous 2015 to all! Mike
Reply:Originally Posted by RodJYou're right, but he said he was running DCEP (not AC even though they are 7018AC rods).  I was taught that the position of your work lead and direction of welding can cause arc blow and porosity.  For reference http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us...ow-detail.aspx  See figures 3-39, 40 and 41.It was just another guess since everything else seemed the same and no one mentioned this possibility.