TIG settings question for tube

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Well, I have some tubing to weld up for some rock rails for my jeep.  I decided to use TIG, so I got 12' of 2" OD .120 wall tube to practice on.  If that gets me good enough, I'll go for the actual rails, if not, I'll just buy some more to continue practicing on.  I have a question though regarding settings.  Since I haven't done a lot of TIG, I figured I'd give the Lincoln and Miller weld calculators a shot for settings.  I'm getting two different settings from the two apps.  Question is, which one is correct?Lincoln:3/32 tungsten150-170ampMiller:1/16 tungsten95-130ampFrom the experience I have so far, I think the Lincoln settings of using 3/32 at 150+ are overkill and the Miller settings are a bit more in the ball park.I'll be using my TB302 with a #8 gas lens, 100% argon at 11cfh.From the more experienced people here, which one of those settings sounds more in the park than the other?Thanks,--Wintermute"No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience." - John Lockewww.improvised-engineering.comManufacturer Agnostic:Blood----------Sweat---------Tears----|------------------|----------------|----Lincoln Red, Miller Blue, Esab Yellow
Reply:Going to use a remote to control the amperage? If you are going to scratch start with no remote I would try around 115 amps, lower amperage will give you a little extra time to move around the tube and position after starting the arc. If you use a remote 130-140 amps will give you a little extra amperage to get a puddle formed faster to help keep heat input lower.     You could use a 1/16" tungsten but I would use 3/32". 1/16" or 3/32" filler.  Joint type/prep will affect how you want to set the machine.Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:I'll be using my hf unit with a pedal, so I can ramp up and down as needed.  The joint type is a coped joint. Fit up will be tight (I have a nice pipe coping jig). Metal will be very clean. Tungsten is E3. I wasn't planning on beveling if I don't really need to.--Wintermute"No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience." - John Lockewww.improvised-engineering.comManufacturer Agnostic:Blood----------Sweat---------Tears----|------------------|----------------|----Lincoln Red, Miller Blue, Esab Yellow
Reply:140 amps and use the pedal to control the puddle size. Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:3/32 tungsten. And I just made a thread showing how important travel speed is. I would probably set the machine to 125-135amps. Pipe doesn't take much heat nor does a butt joint
Reply:3/32 and 120 is where i would start, but i only know 2% thor tungesten3/32 fillbosses stuff:trailblazer 325maxstar 200my stuff:sa 200fronius transpocket 180100 amp Lincoln w/f97 f350 DITKevin
Reply:Thanks guys.  Here are some pics of what came out:3/32 E3 tungsten, 10cfh argon, #8 gas lens, 130amps, 3/32 ER70S-2 filler (laywire, not dipping):I tried higher amperage, but it was kinda uncontrollable for me to follow the curve and run the higher amperage at the speed that would be needed for a clean weld.  I also tried 1/16 filler, but that was just a bloody mess.  If you guys think this looks good settings wise, well, then I've got at least 50 hours in the seat to see what I can make out of this.  I did try dipping instead of laywire on one run...well, I think I need way more practice for that (if dipping is better for the weld, let me know and please provide any tips for making it a smoother action).Thanks again,--Wintermute"No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience." - John Lockewww.improvised-engineering.comManufacturer Agnostic:Blood----------Sweat---------Tears----|------------------|----------------|----Lincoln Red, Miller Blue, Esab Yellow
Reply:Why are you having a hard time dipping? Lay wire is probably easier with a bigger filler rod. Not sure why your using such a big cup. Looks good tho.
Reply:Originally Posted by motolife313Why are you having a hard time dipping? Lay wire is probably easier with a bigger filler rod. Not sure why your using such a big cup. Looks good tho.
Reply:#8 cup will work, but 11 cfh is a very low. 16 cfh would be minimum in my book. Or use a smaller cup. We calculate gas flow in cfh as 2 times cup # minimum, and 3 times cup # as maximum. Cup # is ID count in 16ths. A # 8 cup is 8/16ths.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Originally Posted by HT2-4956moto,I just don't get your fascination with using smaller cups and what you think it's gaining you.   I'm seriously hard pressed to think of any TIG welding situation where using any thing less than a #8 cup (on a gas lens) would gain you the least little bit of advantage.
Reply:Originally Posted by motolife313Why are you having a hard time dipping? Lay wire is probably easier with a bigger filler rod. Not sure why your using such a big cup. Looks good tho.
Reply:Yep it deffinetly takes practice getting the hand and eye coordination down. And feeding the filler through your hand. It will be second nature for you soon if you stay determined
Reply:The welds look hot, by the grey color.  You'll have to turn down the amps towards the 90 end of the range, at least until you start getting used to the curve and can move faster around the pipe.  Once you get the puddle working, the faster dipping and movement will also cool the puddle.
Reply:Okay, trying dipping a bit more.  Didn't try turning down the amps yet, I'll give that a shot tomorrow.  First I tried dipping on the pipe, then on some SS 1x1 .120 wall square tube.  The dipping definitely requires more coordination.  On the stainless I also tried some weaving just because.  I actually found that to be interesting since it had me focusing more on when and where I needed to dip to match the weave and helped me get used to the two hand movement a bit better.  I also turned up the gas to around 15cfh.  Put a short cap on the torch since I had a couple of instances where I hit my hood with the long one.  All the other settings were still the same.Here's the pics for critique:--Wintermute"No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience." - John Lockewww.improvised-engineering.comManufacturer Agnostic:Blood----------Sweat---------Tears----|------------------|----------------|----Lincoln Red, Miller Blue, Esab Yellow
Reply:Looks real good but you need to push more filler in. Amps are probably good but you need more filler that will cool things down
Reply:The beads are looking better, but still too hot   Of these pics, your single dipping pic that has some color is getting closer to the heat range you are looking for.Factors that will reduce the heat are moving faster, turning down the amps (although there is a level below which you have to wait so long for the puddle that you end up putting more heat into the piece and still ending up with an overheated weld) turning up the gas, or using more filler with each dip, as motolife313 mentioned.  If you practice a bit more, you will get the hang of the dipping or lay wire feeding to keep the puddle fluid and moving faster.  Some people prefer to keep the amps turned up, move more quickly and use the pedal to modulate or manual pulse to reduce the overall heat input, but whether you keep the heat lower by lower amps and moving slower, or higher amps and moving quicker, you'll still benefit from keeping the overall temp lower.  I'm guessing that you are going too slow, and as you speed it up, you'll see the results.
Reply:exactly how perfect do rock rail welds have to be?
Reply:Yeah, unless you're planning on going rock crawling on Mars there's probably no NASA specs involved.
Reply:Clearly they don't have to be perfect. I could do them with stick or mig faster and they'd be more than strong enough, however, I've been meaning to learn tig to some reasonable level and since I'm on vacation and have the time... Also, if I'm going to do something, why would I settle for good enough?I'll try moving faster today. I was watching some of Jodies videos and yeah, I'm moving wayyyyy too slow. I may actually up the amps a bit to force me to move faster and see how that works. I think I can start picking up the pace now that I'm getting the coordination down a little better.--Wintermute"No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience." - John Lockewww.improvised-engineering.comManufacturer Agnostic:Blood----------Sweat---------Tears----|------------------|----------------|----Lincoln Red, Miller Blue, Esab Yellow
Reply:@ wintermute - see you increased your flow to ~ 16CFH, as suggested by shovelon.  What's your post-flow?  At least 10sec?  Tungsten look ok post-burn?"Discovery is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody else has thought" - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
Reply:Yup, 10sec (not changeable in the 251d from what I've been able to determine). Tubgsten is very clean and sharp post weld.--Wintermute"No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience." - John Lockewww.improvised-engineering.comManufacturer Agnostic:Blood----------Sweat---------Tears----|------------------|----------------|----Lincoln Red, Miller Blue, Esab Yellow
Reply:Well, I think it's getting better.  Was trying to figure out what was going on with the heat input and started digging around online, tried changing gas settings, speed, dipping more filler, dipping more often, etc... Finally watched one of Jodies videos where he covers torch angle and realized that maybe I didn't have enough angle, so I added a bit more angle to the torch and here's what it's producing:135 amp, E3 3/32 tungsten, #8 gas lens, 16cfh 100% argon, 3/32 ER70S-2 filler, dipping, torch angle around 30* running uphill:How does that look?  The beads are definitely shinier, there is no discernible undercut, the bead width and height looks very consistent to me except where I think I'm holding my starts cold and need to dwell at the beginning a little bit longer.--Wintermute"No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience." - John Lockewww.improvised-engineering.comManufacturer Agnostic:Blood----------Sweat---------Tears----|------------------|----------------|----Lincoln Red, Miller Blue, Esab Yellow
Reply:That's looks real good! How long have you been tig welding? You will notice the more often you dip the more amps you will need. Maybe try putting a touch more filler in. We're you using the whole 135 amps or is that what you set the machine to and you were using the pedal?obviously you got a little cold on the bottom pic.
Reply:I probably only have around 20hrs total tig welding under my belt.  Most of that distributed variously over the last year.I had the pedal floored, so the whole 135.--Wintermute"No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience." - John Lockewww.improvised-engineering.comManufacturer Agnostic:Blood----------Sweat---------Tears----|------------------|----------------|----Lincoln Red, Miller Blue, Esab YellowYou need to do better surface prep.My name's not Jim....
Reply:Anything in particular? The metal is cleaned with acetone but not ground or brushed.  Should I always flap wheel the surface?--Wintermute"No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience." - John Lockewww.improvised-engineering.comManufacturer Agnostic:Blood----------Sweat---------Tears----|------------------|----------------|----Lincoln Red, Miller Blue, Esab Yellow
Reply:You gotta get rid of the mill scale for best results.  I'd use a 36 grit flap wheel myself.  It will also weld easier.  You'll see...I never bother with acetone unless the parts have been oiled.Last edited by Boostinjdm; 01-07-2015 at 03:49 AM.My name's not Jim....
Reply:I always do
Reply:Okay, super clean metal (wiped with acetone, hit with a sanding disk on the small die grinder, wiped with acetone again inside and out).  Didn't see any noticeable difference with the prior settings.  Tried turning my amps up on a couple of passes pieces (harder for me to control, but not much bead difference).  Tried turning them down in increments of 5.  Got the cleanest beads around 120amps.  They were a bit shinier than the prior ones, control was easier.  Visually noticeable heat affected zone was much decreased.  What do you guys think (these are the beads run at 120, all other weld settings the same as before, filler 3/32 dipping, metal cleaned and prepped like crazy):--Wintermute"No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience." - John Lockewww.improvised-engineering.comManufacturer Agnostic:Blood----------Sweat---------Tears----|------------------|----------------|----Lincoln Red, Miller Blue, Esab Yellow
Reply:Looks good. Probably shiner weld because you put more filler in cooling the weld down. Is the cold rolled steel? How are you coping those?i wouldnt worry much about playing with the amps unless you let the metal cool down every time to get a accurate test.
Reply:Did u like 3/32 or 1/16 better? I hate using 3/32 rod unles I'm doing lay wire. I get the rod stuck alot lol
Reply:Yup, cold rolled steel tube, coping is being done with a JD2 notchmaster and a 2" hole saw.--Wintermute"No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience." - John Lockewww.improvised-engineering.comManufacturer Agnostic:Blood----------Sweat---------Tears----|------------------|----------------|----Lincoln Red, Miller Blue, Esab Yellow
Reply:Originally Posted by motolife313Did u like 3/32 or 1/16 better? I hate using 3/32 rod unles I'm doing lay wire. I get the rod stuck alot lol
Reply:I think you just need to acetone cold rolled. No flap wheel unless there's rust.
Reply:That's kinda what I was going on with all the previous ones...but what the heck, figured it couldn't hurt to sand it down to fresh clean metal and give that a shot.--Wintermute"No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience." - John Lockewww.improvised-engineering.comManufacturer Agnostic:Blood----------Sweat---------Tears----|------------------|----------------|----Lincoln Red, Miller Blue, Esab Yellow
Reply:That's cool it works for you! I know a guy that's all he uses even on 16 gauge steel. Every time I use it I put it right back in the box. Kinda like when I turn on my pulser, that always gets turnd right back off to lol. Have you tried pulsing this joint?
Reply:Originally Posted by wintermuteThat's kinda what I was going on with all the previous ones...but what the heck, figured it couldn't hurt to sand it down to fresh clean metal and give that a shot.--Wintermute
Reply:Heh, no pulse (well, I could manual pulse with the pedal).  The Trailblazer is pretty basic when it comes to TIG.  The HF251D gives me high frequency for starting and can be set to constant for aluminum as well as HF intensity adjustment.  Also gives me pre and post flow gas, but hard set, not adjustable.  The AC for aluminum off the TB and through the HF251D is pretty basic, no pulse, no balance, or any of those other fancy settings .--Wintermute"No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience." - John Lockewww.improvised-engineering.comManufacturer Agnostic:Blood----------Sweat---------Tears----|------------------|----------------|----Lincoln Red, Miller Blue, Esab Yellow
Reply:Lets see you try to throw a weave pass over that root pass.
Reply:Is there a cleaning band when ur on ac?
Reply:Yup, relatively nice cleaning action actually.  Just not adjustable like a synchrowave or anything.I'll give the weave cap a try tomorrow...should be interesting, to try to do that while following a curve --Wintermute"No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience." - John Lockewww.improvised-engineering.comManufacturer Agnostic:Blood----------Sweat---------Tears----|------------------|----------------|----Lincoln Red, Miller Blue, Esab Yellow
Reply:Weaving puts alot of heat into the metal tho so keep that in mind.
Reply:I would put a #12 cup and jack the argon way up and that grey would go away. But, I'm not paying for the argon.
Reply:wintermute....Have you learned to weld in both directions with your hands over the branch or is one side done over the run tube?  Impressive torch control in any case.
Reply:Okay .  Yet more pics.  I went down to my LWS with a few of the pieces I had welded.  One of the guys there had a look at them, went over my settings with me.  Then he handed me a box of 3/32 2% Lanthanated and a #10 gas lens, told me to drop my amps to 125 or so, decrease my torch angle ever so slightly, and pop the gas up to 20.  Got home, ground some tungsten, set the amps down, cut, coped, and cleaned some more practice pieces, here's what that turned out:Beads are much shinier, not quite as broad, stacks are cleaner, control was much easier.  I think this is closer to where I need to be.--Wintermute"No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience." - John Lockewww.improvised-engineering.comManufacturer Agnostic:Blood----------Sweat---------Tears----|------------------|----------------|----Lincoln Red, Miller Blue, Esab Yellow
Reply:I don't try to be a BUZZ KILL, but NASCAR and most of the other chassis guys out there use a Wire Feed  to stick their chassis parts together......I think as long as your fit is good ( Fish Mouth )  your pretty much good to go with any good weld.....Doesn't need to be show car.......I sometimes use 70S6 from a MIG spool because it seems to wet out better for my applications...Last edited by B_C; 01-08-2015 at 07:04 PM.  Miller Dynasty 350Twenty Six HammersThree Crow BarsBig Rock
Reply:Ohh, I know I don't have to run it with TIG.  I want to do it with TIG, besides, it's also a great excuse to get decent at TIG where as up until this point I avoided it since it's not a process I'm proficient in.  Since I'm going to do it in TIG, I want to do it as best I can (I usually don't accept it will hold, it has to be the best I can make it).  I could have already built the thing out of MIG or stick honestly and done welds that were more than what would be needed and would look good, but I wouldn't be learning anything new.--Wintermute"No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience." - John Lockewww.improvised-engineering.comManufacturer Agnostic:Blood----------Sweat---------Tears----|------------------|----------------|----Lincoln Red, Miller Blue, Esab Yellow
Reply:Looks great! Watch your heat as you move to the sides. Looks like it's running away from you a bit. I usually start letting off the pedal as I move away from the deepest sections of the cope and toward the sides. You'll also be pushing less filler on the sides to keep a flat bead, so there's less quenching effect from the filler.Mike ZanconatoZanconato Custom Cycles @mzank on Instagram
Reply:Why have you butchered the finish on those tubes? they're clean enough you don't need to touch them at all... there is no mill scale on that material...Last edited by MikeGyver; 01-08-2015 at 07:20 PM.Welding/Fab Pics: www.UtahWeld.com