hobart 210 won't penetrate 1/4"

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I haven't welded in a while and am by no means an expert. I bought a hobart 210mvp for some 4x4 fab stuff in my garage for personal use. I am practicing on 1/4" steel, running ER70s-6 .035 wire . Using 75% argon 25% co2, metal is clean, set to the required settings. 6/45 polarity is correct per the inside of the box instructions.... i simply am NOT penetrating. Whats going on? Welds look good. Sometimes so so... I can weld 3/16 and not be able to bend break it but with the 1/4" its a joke. Any advice is appreciated..
Reply:Originally Posted by jeep4332I haven't welded in a while and am by no means an expert. I bought a hobart 210mvp for some 4x4 fab stuff in my garage for personal use. I am practicing on 1/4" steel, running ER70s-6 .035 wire . Using 75% argon 25% co2, metal is clean, set to the required settings. 6/45 polarity is correct per the inside of the box instructions.... i simply am NOT penetrating. Whats going on? Welds look good. Sometimes so so... I can weld 3/16 and not be able to bend break it but with the 1/4" its a joke. Any advice is appreciated..
Reply:Input voltage and brand of wire are going to influence the wire speed dial setting required for any of the taps. Based on my experience, the door chart wire speed settings are very seldom close. Too high or too low of wire speed dial setting are going to result in poor depth of penetration or fusion between the base metal and weld metal. If you have a solid 240 volt input, tap 6 should be able to produce sound welds on 1/4" mild steel. Attached ImagesESAB Migmaster 250 Hobart Ironman 230Multimatic 215TWECO Fabricator 181i & 211iHH125EZ - nice little fluxcore only unitMaxstar 150 STH - very nice
Reply:extension cord is a 220 hobart cord and I have to use the full length of it .I believe it is 10 feet .I checked wall voltage when I put a new socket in and it was 120 on each leg. Ill throw some practice welds down without the extension cord and see what happensLast edited by jeep4332; 03-22-2016 at 10:40 PM.
Reply:Can you set the heat hotter ? Go to next setting and skip what the book says.
Reply:Friend, I will repeat just one more time....What you read at the wall for voltage is on an UNLOADED circuit.IF it is not wired to support 50 AMPS from breaker to wall outlet, your voltage will sag with or without any extension cord.Your Hobart 210MVP WILL weld very solidly completely thru 1/4" steel as it states on door chart at the 5 or 6 tap Voltage setting as long as it gets full input voltage while welding......WHILE WELDING.The door chart is perhaps the most accurate in the welding industry....All you need do is keep it fed adequate power.You own a very high quality welder offered at a homeowner price....Feed it pro grade power and it will deliver pro level results....Mine does it daily.Last edited by wornoutoldwelder; 03-23-2016 at 05:08 AM.
Reply:If you had to run the outlet longer than 10ft from the breaker you should have used 6 ga wire on a 50 amp circuit. If you used any less you're experiencing voltage drop and high heat on your wiring. Your machine should be able to run 3/8 steel no problem per the chart settings. Mine does. It's simple. get a mud motor. shoot ducks in the face.Last edited by jakehawk9; 03-23-2016 at 06:57 AM.
Reply:Please post a pic of the weld that you are referring to.What type of weld? Inside corner? Butt weld? More info please.If it's a butt weld, did you bevel and gap the metal or butt tight with square edges?Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:OP stated that HE installed wall receptacle, so odds are he mounted it to existing 12 or 10 AWG inside wall, when machine requires 8 or 6 AWG circuit to act the beast it is.He has a very decent welding machine and is seeking that it perform to it's upper designed capabilities, but it is perhaps starved for input voltage WHEN actually welding on high tap settings.I don't know of any 10' nema 6-50 cord made by Hobart, but if he were to slide the welder closer to his wall plug without extension cord he might achieve full penetration easily.I'm thinking he is operating off a long solid strand 10 AWG or even 12 AWG, in wall 220 V 30 amp circuit he attached a nema 6-50R to and the in wall wiring can't pass the amps required on thick stuff.Last edited by wornoutoldwelder; 03-23-2016 at 07:36 AM.
Reply:Don't forget about the safety factor. If he wired ot to 10 or 12 ga he's got a fire hazard on hand. It's simple. get a mud motor. shoot ducks in the face.
Reply:Originally Posted by DanInput voltage and brand of wire are going to influence the wire speed dial setting required for any of the taps. Based on my experience, the door chart wire speed settings are very seldom close. Too high or too low of wire speed dial setting are going to result in poor depth of penetration or fusion between the base metal and weld metal. If you have a solid 240 volt input, tap 6 should be able to produce sound welds on 1/4" mild steel.
Reply:wornoutoldwelder, you are probably correct and it seems pretty logical. I'll tear the socket off later today and see what gauge the wires are. The breaker box is on the other side of the 2 car garage outside the house so that alone makes for a long run. If the wiring is less than par I'll get an electrician to wire it up correctly as close to the box as possible. Thanks for helping and not bashing.......Last edited by jeep4332; 03-23-2016 at 10:22 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by jeep4332you are correct,..  the cord is 20ft. I'll take a look at the wiring today and see whats up. The house is known to have iffy wiring.
Reply:Uh, 210MVP only pulls 24A at 230 volts balls-out based on the Hobart specs.  Where are you guys getting 50A from? http://www.hobartwelders.com/product...ed/handler210/- Tim
Reply:Originally Posted by tadawsonUh, 210MVP only pulls 24A at 230 volts balls-out based on the Hobart specs.  Where are you guys getting 50A from? http://www.hobartwelders.com/product...ed/handler210/- Tim
Reply:Shouldn't be a problem with having a 50 Amp plug/socket with wiring and breaker properly sized for 30 Amps, or 40.  As long as the weakest link is sized properly you should be OK."USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA  Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:Originally Posted by tadawsonUh, 210MVP only pulls 24A at 230 volts balls-out based on the Hobart specs.  Where are you guys getting 50A from? http://www.hobartwelders.com/product...ed/handler210/- Tim
Reply:No further than he's talking 10ga wire would support a 30amp breaker no problem....but if it is 12ga....-DoogieMiller 350PMiller Trailblazer 325 EFI w/ Excel PowerLincoln LN25 suitcase welderXMT 304/22a feederMiller Syncrowave 350LXMiller EconotigHobart Handler 140(2) Uni-Hydro 42-14Hypertherm 65 plasmaWEBB Gap bed lathe
Reply:Jeep, Wornout, or Dan,What does the tag on the back of the machine say for max amps?  Ed spotted what I was going to point out.My name's not Jim....
Reply:Friends, it wasn't long ago that manufactures published specs that described amps drawn at ONLY 220V, but now much of USA is running a stiffer 230V or better, so now they state specs at 230V.....I have a very stiff 248V and often better voltage where I live....Higher voltage offers better machine output. It is just an electrical fact and used to transmit power over many many miles with little loss once they step up the voltage really high.Simply NEVER wire circuits to barely meet code if you want better performance for your high amp draw equipment. I ran 6-3 just 30 feet to my 5hp air compressor and that sucker runs cool all day long sometimes, and will live longer because there is NO sag when it starts.Low volts causes high amps and lots of heat in the load component....Too small wire conductors lower the voltage and then have to try to pass higher amps and machine ain't got the grunt it would have if it were fed a little move volts than the maker specs.LOW voltage kills LOTS more machinery than high voltage.The Hobart welder comes with a nema 6-50 plug on it. Connect it to a 50 amp circuit with at least 230V WHILE WELDING and it will penetrate 1/4" completely all day long on just tap 6 and often 5 of the 7 available. You folks that state their in door chart is wrong need also to examine what your voltage is WHILE WELDING....If you run 248V like me it might appear a little too hot if voltage doesn't sag while actually welding.If you are operating off house panel and wife is inside running the stove, the dryer and A/C and kid in shower while she vacuums, then expect volts to sag.In fact, if today you actually have a wife that cooks and cleans and kids that shower, then you got no need to be out in the shop, huh? Last edited by wornoutoldwelder; 03-23-2016 at 10:56 PM.
Reply:My welder is on 200 amp service. While not under load each leg on my 50 amp circuit is putting out 125 voltsIt's simple. get a mud motor. shoot ducks in the face.
Reply:125V each leg?, yeah baby! That is stiff as a preachers ...er, er...you know And oh, BTW, it is very necessary that you examine if both legs of your 240V circuit are very closely in voltage balance WHEN WELDING or LOADED....If not, the examine first your panel to determine if you need to shift some heavy 120V loads to alternate busses in panel to maintain really close balance in the quazi 2 phase stuff that pulls 240V.
Reply:10 awg at the wall outlet and 30amp breaker at the box. Got some 6 awg and will wire it in from the 50a breaker at the box and got a welders box as an extension cord. About a 10' run. I'll let ya'll know tomorrow. If that fails I'll have to take the welder to a shop and have it load tested.
Reply:Unless you have a poor connection, or weak input voltage, tap 6 should run perfectly fine off a 30 amp circuit with 10 ga wire. I'd check the tightness of all electrical connection in the input circuit and the welding circuit, especially the thumb screw on wire drive assembly.The technique (oscillation) that you are using to run a weld bead can have an influence on the degree of fusion/penetration between the base metal and weld metal.What type of weld joint(s) are you welding? Trying to weld over heavy mill scale can hinder weld bead penetration.ESAB Migmaster 250 Hobart Ironman 230Multimatic 215TWECO Fabricator 181i & 211iHH125EZ - nice little fluxcore only unitMaxstar 150 STH - very nice
Reply:Pictures say 1000 words. Being able to see what issues you are having with your welds tells us a lot about the problems you may be having. Mentioned above but possibly lost in all the electrical comments was the question about what sort of joint you are trying to do. But welds with a tight fitted joint isn't going to hold as well as a T joint or a beveled and gapped but joint..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald ReaganI was messing with a variety of joints. Trans. fillet welds where the back of one of the plates hung about 5 in" out. I put it in a vice, beat it and it broke at the weld. Tee joint. same thing. As for cleaning the material, I used a die grinder. setting was 6/45 using .035 solid wire..... I don't taper the edges because with my jeep application thats not practical when welding on the frame and on axle housings etc. ..Everything I read says that 10# wire and a 30a breaker should be sufficient. It isn't. I am running a 20ft cable and the run from the outlet from one wall of the 2 car garage to the box on the outside wall on the other side of the garage makes a good 70 ft total. Here is a crappy shot of 1/4 -1/4 tee joint that I broke with a mallet.
Reply:Show welds before breaking as well.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:
Reply:That's an odd looking weld - did you make overlapping spot welds or something similar?Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:He welded filthy dirty rusty pieces together...and prolly with ground attached to same filthy dirty rusty stuff
Reply:Originally Posted by jeep4332 ..Everything I read says that 10# wire and a 30a breaker should be sufficient. It isn't. I am running a 20ft cable and the run from the outlet from one wall of the 2 car garage to the box on the outside wall on the other side of the garage makes a good 70 ft total.
Reply:I appreciate the critiques . Yes the pic of the lap is a dirty weld. Just a practice. As for the wall outlet v question. 110 at ea to gnd. 220v left/right. I'll tighten  up my dimes.
Reply:Originally Posted by jeep4332I appreciate the critiques . Yes the pic of the lap is a dirty weld. Just a practice. As for the wall outlet v question. 110 at ea to gnd. 220v left/right. I'll tighten  up my dimes.
Reply:Originally Posted by jeep4332I appreciate the critiques . Yes the pic of the lap is a dirty weld. Just a practice. As for the wall outlet v question. 110 at ea to gnd. 220v left/right. I'll tighten  up my dimes.
Reply:If you are making a series of lower case "u"s to get the dime stack look then you are hurting penetration by not focusing enough heat in the ceter of the joint. Jody (welding tips and tricks ) made a good video about this.Eventual master of the obvious, practitioner of "stream of consciousness fabrication".  P.S. I edit almost every post because because I'm posting from my phone and my fingers sometimes move faster than my brain.
Reply:Originally Posted by DanHot to hot you are truly only seeing a meter reading of 220V ?
Reply:The picture Dan posted is textbook.  That's a good looking strong mig weld. Dime stacking is nice but not needed for strength.Eventual master of the obvious, practitioner of "stream of consciousness fabrication".  P.S. I edit almost every post because because I'm posting from my phone and my fingers sometimes move faster than my brain.
Reply:Same question, what are you actually doing that produces this strange pattern??Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:That stacked dime look is a natural result of adding filler when doing tig welding. It can be replicated thru gun manipulation using mig, but you frequently get poor welds if your technique isn't perfect. A few like ZT can pull this off. However, they 1st learned how to read the puddle and make good solid welds. THEN they learned how to manipulate that puddle to get both good welds and the surface look they wanted. I'd say maybe 1 in 10,000 people can pull this off and do it right.Dan's bead shown above is text book mig. A nice steady, even bead, with the toes wetted in well. This isn't all that hard to accomplish once you can read the puddle, but consistency like Dan's comes from a lot of practice..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWThat stacked dime look is a natural result of adding filler when doing tig welding. It can be replicated thru gun manipulation using mig, but you frequently get poor welds if your technique isn't perfect. A few like ZT can pull this off. However, they 1st learned how to read the puddle and make good solid welds. THEN they learned how to manipulate that puddle to get both good welds and the surface look they wanted. I'd say maybe 1 in 10,000 people can pull this off and do it right.Dan's bead shown above is text book mig. A nice steady, even bead, with the toes wetted in well. This isn't all that hard to accomplish once you can read the puddle, but consistency like Dan's comes from a lot of practice.
Reply:If you don't know how to read the puddle well, and how to properly use the cursive "e" oscillation trying to stack "dimes" can definitely lead to lack of fusion issues along the length of a weld bead. The red arrow in my attachment rough indicates were you want to direct the arc on the upward stroke of the cursive "e" pattern. If you jump to far forward with each loop your more than likely going to produce lack of fusion along the weld joint.With a straight travel, that may include a little side to side oscillation, you can end up with lack of fusion issues if the wire speed setting is to high for the voltage.  The too high wire speed setting keeps the arc from being on the leading edge of the weld puddle. When the arc rides in the middle or rear of the weld puddle, the puddle creates a barrier between the arc and base metal thatreduces weld penetration potential.With a solid 240 volt input as long as your technique is solid, 1/4" shouldn't be an issue with tap 6. My input voltage is around 246. This higher voltage has somewhat ruined the performance of the 210 MVP, because of this I plan on selling it  in the near future. The output of every tap is much higher then it would be with a 240 volt input. With my current 246 volt input to produce the weld I produced on 1/4", in the previous picture I posted, I'd be using tap 5 now. The input voltage for that tap 6 weld was right around 240. I can't guarantee for certain since I am not there to actually see the results, but based on past experience when I was running the 210 MVP off a 240volt input, I'd more than likely use tap 4 to run a cursive "e" oscillation on a horizontal T or flat or horizontal lap joint constructed from 1/4". I tend to restrict my use of the cursive "e" oscillation to non-critical applications. There arc certain occasions when I use it though for a somewhat critical application. Attached ImagesESAB Migmaster 250 Hobart Ironman 230Multimatic 215TWECO Fabricator 181i & 211iHH125EZ - nice little fluxcore only unitMaxstar 150 STH - very nice
Reply:Just a quick question. Did you wired your extension cord yourself? If you did and you have the new style(since 2000) 4 prong wall connector from a dryer, and you wired your extension cord yourseld using the 4 prongs, you may be losing a leg. You are suppose to use only the 2 flat legs and one ground and leave the L shaped leg with nothing on it. Just my 2 cents. Maybe is not the machine or your wall amps at all. Hope this helps.
Reply:The nema 6-50 plug on this particular machine is only 3 prong. I'm not for certain but I'm pretty sure that's what he's working withIt's simple. get a mud motor. shoot ducks in the face.
Reply:Originally Posted by Dan When the arc rides in the middle or rear of the weld puddle, the puddle creates a barrier between the arc and base metal that reduces weld penetration potential.
Reply:What kind of steel are you trying to weld. It's not bed frame angle by chance. It looks very grainy. Dan D.Manipulator Of Metal
Reply:Originally Posted by jeep4332As for cleaning the material, I used a die grinder.
Reply:Stuff welds better when it's shiny. I'll weld black metal but if I have any rust I'll take it down to new. Why not ya know?It's simple. get a mud motor. shoot ducks in the face.
Reply:Originally Posted by jakehawk9The nema 6-50 plug on this particular machine is only 3 prong. I'm not for certain but I'm pretty sure that's what he's working withIt's simple. get a mud motor. shoot ducks in the face.
Reply:Originally Posted by QCTechInspI was asking him about the extension cord. My machine also have a 6-50 plug as most machines, but the wall plug have a 4 prong(new style in all houses after year2000), so I have to buy 2 different receptacles when I made my extension. One 6-50 to put on the machine extreme and another 4 prong (nema 14-30)plug that will engage in the 4 plug receptable that is in the laundry. That is why I asked if he did his own extension cord. He said he was using one. If he did and he connected the 4 prong and wired it, he may be loosing one leg because it is not necessary. You only wire the 2 120 legs and one of the grounds and leave the L shaped prong out or simply dont wire it in the extension new plug. Just a detail, but he did mention that he is using an extension cord and as far as I know , no one sells this type of extension from nema 6-50 to nema 14-30. You have to build it yourself most of the times. I am guessing that he wired it himself if that is the case and that they may be a wrong connection.
Reply:I bought an 8 ga 20 foot nema 6-50 extension for $60 at menards. And they're on amazon for about the same. It makes it easy. They're rated for 50a-250v. Very accessible and easy to find. Hobart sells one too for a little more. If you want to make your own they have 6-2 romex as well as 8-2 at big box stores. For instance:  http://www.menards.com/main/electric...4429528908.htmIt's simple. get a mud motor. shoot ducks in the face.I used a 50 amp breaker and 6-2 romex. Works like it shouldLast edited by jakehawk9; 03-26-2016 at 09:11 AM.