How many amps to stick weld 3/16 in a single pass?

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I'm thinking about getting a 220v welder when I have the money so I can weld thicker stock.  I'd like to be able to do 3/16" mild steel in a single pass.  I was thinking stick welder, but now I'm not sure.According to Lincoln's guide: http://www.lincolnelectric.com/asset...eld2/c2410.pdfIt looks like I would need 200+ amps to weld 3/16 in a single pass.  That seems awfully high to me, but maybe it's right?Let's say that I wanted to buy a machine that I could make skid plates, maybe a small utility trailer, bumper for my truck with...what would I need to get the job done?  I had it in my head that I could do 3/16 stock no problem with basic 1/8" 6010/11 and 7014 rods running on any old 220v stick welder, most of which are capable of 200+ amps AC or ~150 amps DC.
Reply:I think they are mistaken.  Maybe with rod larger than 1/8", but 1/8" 7014, 7018                                                                 should not be 200 amps.  Maybe 125 amps max.  6011 even less.
Reply:Look real close at that PDF. I think what you will see is that the electrode size is very large for some reason. Keep in mind lots of Lincolns stuff is written with high speed, high deposition production work in mind. The listings I looked at showing 200 amps for 3/16" material all were using something like 3/16" rods. Not something the average hobbyist would want to use.I'd probably opt for 3/32" or 1/8" rods. Choice to be dependent somewhat on what rod I was using and the joint style.There's almost nothing the average home hobbyist usually needs to weld that can't be done with a machine that's capable of 225 amps Ac or say 180 amps DC approximately. Most guys never need anything larger than 125-140 amps to run 1/8" 7018 on DC. The amps to run 1/8" 7018 would be slightly higher. Even if you needed to jump up to 5/16" rods, 225/180 amps would probably let you do what you wanted to on average, even if you had to stay on the lower end of the setting in some cases..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:So how do you decide what size rod to run?  Is it basically that the larger rod will go faster/fill more?  If so, is there any reason you couldn't run 1/16" rod to weld 3/16" steel in a single pass, just go real slow?There must be something to it that I'm missing...
Reply:I'll start out with a basic definition of terms so we are all on the same page. By "weld" I'd define that as something suitable for structural or critical applications. If you are simply looking to "glue" or "stick" metal together, the requirements are much less stringent. A lot of this is done thru experience and comes from what has been proven to work for others. To truly determine if a rod size/process will work for an application, usually a weld engineer would work out a process and then they'd test it to determine if the process worked for that application or not. This is how they determine what would work on say a bridge or a piece of heavy equipment in a production setting. Some times they "cheat" and use an existing proven set of parameters. Hobby stuff is less exacting.There is a minimum amount of power that is required to get decent penetration into the base material of a given thickness. You can't simply use 1/16" rods to weld up 1" solid steel for example. 3/16" with 1/16" rods would be "iffy" in my opinion as far as being suitable for "structural" use. I'd want more amps to know I was getting proper depth of fusion into the base material. If all you want to do is glue together a welding table, it could probably be made to work with no major issues as long as the welds didn't have a lot of major flaws.I usually try to use the largest rod/amp combo possible within reason. I know for example from proven practices that 1/8" rods will do for 1/4"- 5/8" with no problems. Much thicker and I'd want to jump up in rod size, though I do know that there are proven procedures to do welds on 1" material with 1/8" rods. It will take quite a while to do this however. Less than 1/4" with 1/8" rod is certainly doable, but on average the welder has to be a bit more skilled than the typical hobby guy to pull this off. Dropping down to 3/32" reduces the heat input and allows thinner materials to be welded easier. I'd say 16 ga- 1/4" is a decent range for 3/32" rods. 1/8" material is certainly doable with 1/16" rods, but you are getting on the low side amp wise to get  solid welds. These rods are really for thin material..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWI'll start out with a basic definition of terms so we are all on the same page. By "weld" I'd define that as something suitable for structural or critical applications. If you are simply looking to "glue" or "stick" metal together, the requirements are much less stringent. A lot of this is done thru experience and comes from what has been proven to work for others. To truly determine if a rod size/process will work for an application, usually a weld engineer would work out a process and then they'd test it to determine if the process worked for that application or not. This is how they determine what would work on say a bridge or a piece of heavy equipment in a production setting. Some times they "cheat" and use an existing proven set of parameters. Hobby stuff is less exacting.There is a minimum amount of power that is required to get decent penetration into the base material of a given thickness. You can't simply use 1/16" rods to weld up 1" solid steel for example. 3/16" with 1/16" rods would be "iffy" in my opinion as far as being suitable for "structural" use. I'd want more amps to know I was getting proper depth of fusion into the base material. If all you want to do is glue together a welding table, it could probably be made to work with no major issues as long as the welds didn't have a lot of major flaws.I usually try to use the largest rod/amp combo possible within reason. I know for example from proven practices that 1/8" rods will do for 1/4"- 5/8" with no problems. Much thicker and I'd want to jump up in rod size, though I do know that there are proven procedures to do welds on 1" material with 1/8" rods. It will take quite a while to do this however. Less than 1/4" with 1/8" rod is certainly doable, but on average the welder has to be a bit more skilled than the typical hobby guy to pull this off. Dropping down to 3/32" reduces the heat input and allows thinner materials to be welded easier. I'd say 16 ga- 1/4" is a decent range for 3/32" rods. 1/8" material is certainly doable with 1/16" rods, but you are getting on the low side amp wise to get  solid welds. These rods are really for thin material.
Reply:Here's something that may help.http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/calculators/
Reply:Originally Posted by BD1Here's something that may help.http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/calculators/
Reply:Run a 7018, 3/32 or 1/8" at about 75 amps.
Reply:There's quite a bit written here about rod types and when/where to use them. The average hobby welder can get by with just about anything for noncritical projects. If it is a critical project, new 7018 on average is probably the rod to use. For most semi critical projects. (I'd put a bumper in this category) I'd suggest you run the rods you run best as your 1st choice. If you run several rods about equal, I'd run a 70XX rod over a 60XX rod. CEP did a good backyard "test" that shows how certain rods perform by smashing them with a hammer. If I get a chance later tonight, I'll dig up the link. It shows how different rods compare in "toughness" ( toughness being the ability to flex rather than break).No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by joecool85This is helpful, but only if you already know what rod size and type to run...which are my primary questions.
Reply:Josh, 6010/11 is like eating a cupcake compared to 7018. Esp. when you get into 5/32 7018. The 60 series rods will give you a false sense of security that you know what your doing as far as i'm concerned. Trust me i'm not knocking you bud, but keep at it and you will see. When it clicks it clicks and one day you'll be saying that d!ckhead weldermike was right! I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:Originally Posted by weldermikeJosh, 6010/11 is like eating a cupcake compared to 7018. Esp. when you get into 5/32 7018. The 60 series rods will give you a false sense of security that you know what your doing as far as i'm concerned. Trust me i'm not knocking you bud, but keep at it and you will see. When it clicks it clicks and one day you'll be saying that d!ckhead weldermike was right!
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWThere's almost nothing the average home hobbyist usually needs to weld that can't be done with a machine that's capable of 225 amps Ac or say 180 amps DC approximately. Most guys never need anything larger than 125-140 amps to run 1/8" 7018 on DC. The amps to run 1/8" 7018 would be slightly higher. Even if you needed to jump up to 5/16" rods, 225/180 amps would probably let you do what you wanted to on average, even if you had to stay on the lower end of the setting in some cases.
Reply:Assuming the operator is skilled and the machine is big enough, then yes you could build a small trailer with 7014..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by joecool85Is 7014 strong enough for something like a trailer?  Assuming that the welder is of sufficient skill to be working on that type of project?  (I'm not...yet)I like that it wouldn't have to be stored in an oven.
Reply:Originally Posted by joecool85Is 7014 strong enough for something like a trailer?  Assuming that the welder is of sufficient skill to be working on that type of project?  (I'm not...yet)I like that it wouldn't have to be stored in an oven.
Reply:7018 and 7014 are both 70,000 psi rods.  They are strong enough for a trailer7014 is my favorite cause it welds very nice and needs no rod oven.I lean towards 6010/6011 and 7014 as the two general purpose rods for my shop.If there is one rule for a new welder to remember - don't try to weld metal thinner than your rod.  It's frustrating when you are new.  Dave J.Edit: like said above - no welding trailers when you are new Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Originally Posted by weldermikeThe 60 series rods will give you a false sense of security that you know what your doing as far as i'm concerned. Trust me i'm not knocking you bud, but keep at it and you will see. When it clicks it clicks and one day you'll be saying that d!ckhead weldermike was right!
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave7018 and 7014 are both 70,000 psi rods.  They are strong enough for a trailer
Reply:All rods ok for mild steel under 50 ksi , big rods more production . We used to have 100 500 amp ac transformers ,Hollups and Lincoln TM -500 and used tons of big stick up to 3/8 dia. Doing D1.5 bridges thr code requires min heat imput at times with 5/32 min dia . 7/32 E7028 and E7024 will run away from .045 fine wire mig all the time . For the trade center Lincoln 1/16 we are using Outershield 71 Elite by the  ton . well over 100 to date!!  For sub arc LA-75/860 flux 5/32 dia twin wire 900 amps 35 lb /hr .
Reply:Originally Posted by joshuabardwellWouldn't even 60XX be okay? It seems like it's probably the penetration of the rod, and the ability of the rod and the weldor to lay down a quality bead, more than anything else. I mean, 6013 is a 60kpsi rod, but I doubt I would trust a trailer to it in most weldors' hands.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave7018 and 7014 are both 70,000 psi rods.  They are strong enough for a trailer7014 is my favorite cause it welds very nice and needs no rod oven.I lean towards 6010/6011 and 7014 as the two general purpose rods for my shop.If there is one rule for a new welder to remember - don't try to weld metal thinner than your rod.  It's frustrating when you are new.  Dave J.Edit: like said above - no welding trailers when you are new
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWThere's quite a bit written here about rod types and when/where to use them. The average hobby welder can get by with just about anything for noncritical projects. If it is a critical project, new 7018 on average is probably the rod to use. For most semi critical projects. (I'd put a bumper in this category) I'd suggest you run the rods you run best as your 1st choice. If you run several rods about equal, I'd run a 70XX rod over a 60XX rod. CEP did a good backyard "test" that shows how certain rods perform by smashing them with a hammer. If I get a chance later tonight, I'll dig up the link. It shows how different rods compare in "toughness" ( toughness being the ability to flex rather than break)
Reply:Here is a chart from AWS comparing the different rods. (mild steel electrode selection chart)If you look at soundness, ductility and low temp impact you can see why 6013 gets poor results in destructive testing and 7018 is at the top.Dave J. Attached ImagesLast edited by MinnesotaDave; 04-10-2013 at 09:07 AM.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.Originally Posted by joecool85Anyway, so you use 7014 and 6010/11.  What do you use the 7014 for and what do you use the 6010/11 for?  Just curious, this has all been very interesting and informative.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveHere is a chart from AWS comparing the different rods. (mild steel electrode selection chart)
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave6010/6011 - filling gaps, open roots, tacking7014 - above and everything else except where 7018 or a specialty rod would be requiredDave J.
Reply:Originally Posted by joecool85So you use 7014 everywhere you could use 6010/11...if that is the case, why use 6010/11 at all?
Reply:Originally Posted by joshuabardwellWhy is 6010/6011 so poorly rated for fillets in flat/horizontal?
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveSince 6010/6011 gets poor marks for spatter loss and deposition rate, it is a poor choice when you could be using a rod better designed for flat and horizontal.
Reply:Originally Posted by joshuabardwellThat makes sense. It's not that 6010/6011 is quantitatively bad in those positions, just that there are other, better choices.
Reply:Sounds like if you could just have one rod, 7014 would be a good "go to" rod.
Reply:Any rod that has a 1 as the third digit ??1? can be used in welding all welding positions if you are skilled enough.  That said some rods are much easier to use in out of positions simply due to the characteristics of the rod.While I have a 50 amp crap box just like yours that I still use by the way on occasion....My first real stick welder was a Lincoln AC225.  I have since upgraded to a Miller Thunderbolt AC225/DC150.  Really though I still stock the same rods for either unit:a)  6011  (1/8" diameter only and has to be Hobart 335A as it is only one I can run with my skill set.  6011 is not easy to use for the beginner).  I use this for all deep penetration applications or on dirty rusty nasty metal that can not be cleaned.  If needed then I will cap with cap my 6011 roots with 7014.  6011 is a fast freeze rod so it is good for overhead welding and filling poor fit gaps too.  Some even claim to like 6011 for thin sheet metal by using fast freeze properties of the rod (I can not use 6011 on thin stuff though, I always burn through thin stuff with 6011.  Deep penetration seems to always trump the fast freeze part at least for me).b)  7014  (1/8, 3/32, and 1/16 diameters).  7014 is an idiot rod and easy to use as it almost welds by itself in the larger diameters.  I use it on cap passes or root passes that do not require deep penetration.  7014 can best be decribed as a barely medium penetrator and it does not like dirty metal at all.  Even the crappiest welding power sources out there will typically run 7014 as long as you have enough amps.  7014 might also be the one rod that burns equally as well whether on AC or DC. Most other rod types burn a whisker better on DC.c)  6013  (3/32 and 5/64 diameters). I use this for any application that I will be "poor boy" machining, or drilling, with hand held power tools for configuring to a desired shape  (i.e.  worn parts build up).  Also I use it for sheet metal applications if I do not have access to a wire feeder as 6013 is a mild penetrator.d)  7018 (or 7018AC which is my preference).  I typically only buy this as I need it since it should be stored in a rod oven.  I am just a small timer and can not justify expense of rod oven or year round electricity to power the oven if I had one.  If I am welding some exotic alloy steel over mild steel then I will use some version of 7018.  I might use it as well on something requiring maximum strength, but I typically have someone else more skill than I do what I deem my critical welds so I rarely fool with any 7018 for my needs.  7018 can be fussey to run and used rod restrikes require breaking flux tip off end.(In other words:  Ask yourself this question.  If my weld breaks is there a chance that either I or someone else could get injured?  If yes, have someone else weld it that knows their stuff.  If No, then weld away since no harm can be done if it breaks.  You will soon learn about good joint design in this process too.Last edited by rankrank1; 04-10-2013 at 02:14 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by joecool85Sounds like if you could just have one rod, 7014 would be a good "go to" rod.
Reply:Originally Posted by joecool85Sounds like if you could just have one rod, 7014 would be a good "go to" rod.
Reply:Originally Posted by joecool85So you use 7014 everywhere you could use 6010/11...if that is the case, why use 6010/11 at all?
Reply:Originally Posted by rankrank1...but I typically have someone else more skill than I do what I deem my critical welds so I rarely fool with any 7018 for my needs.  7018 can be fussey to run and used rod restrikes require breaking flux tip off end.(In other words:  Ask yourself this question.  If my weld breaks is there a chance that either I or someone else could get injured?  If yes, have someone else weld it that knows their stuff.  If No, then weld away since no harm can be done if it breaks.  You will soon learn about good joint design in this process too.
Reply:Like the guys stated that 6010 is a fast freeze rod. You actually may do better with it in position or overhead welds because of its freeze properties. You will be able to whip the rod kinda like sticking the rod into the puddle and pull rod back letting the puddle freeze or cool for a fraction of a second and then stick rod back in. As stated it is great for gaps.  After you got the gap closed up then run 7018 over it. It is more of a finish rod and makes the bead smooth and pretty.  We run 7018 and do not keep it in a oven. If we have some high pressure steam jobs 150 psi and up we' ll open a fresh can to use. Then we'll throw it in a hot box. [insulated box with light bulb]. If YOU open a can and have some left just set them on top of your gas water heater. That will work fine. If you wanna spend $5.00 get a rod keeper from harbor freight. That's all I use. If you use a 20% off coupon your down to $4 .00.http://www.harborfreight.com/welding...per-46477.html
Reply:You're kidding, right? I welded, not glued - even did an apprentice program to find out what welding was all about - got down to the molecular level and covered all factions of NDT as well as the destructive processes.I X-ray welded 3" HY 80 submarine hulls with 1/8" 11018 rods as well as flat and horizontally sub arced them with 1/16" wire.  20 pounds a nite with stick and 100 pounds with subarc. Would have been more but I had interpass temps to keep within. My slag just curled up and fell off when I lit up my next rod and my rejection rate was almost nonexistent. So, if the guy wants to weld big stuff with little rods or little stuff with big rods he just needs to keep within the parameters of rhe rods he's using and be good enough to not blow thru the thinner stuff.  Warping and stress are issues that need to be considered as well
Reply:Wow.  I think they might be saying for 3/16 diameter rods, because that's pretty high for 1/8 rods.Forney C5 Arc WelderLincoln Idealarc 250-250 Ac/Dc Arc WelderMiller Bobcat 225g PlusLincoln PowerMig 200Forney O/A Rig
Reply:Originally Posted by joecool85I'm thinking about getting a 220v welder when I have the money so I can weld thicker stock.  I'd like to be able to do 3/16" mild steel in a single pass.  I was thinking stick welder, but now I'm not sure.According to Lincoln's guide: http://www.lincolnelectric.com/asset...eld2/c2410.pdfIt looks like I would need 200+ amps to weld 3/16 in a single pass.  That seems awfully high to me, but maybe it's right?Let's say that I wanted to buy a machine that I could make skid plates, maybe a small utility trailer, bumper for my truck with...what would I need to get the job done?  I had it in my head that I could do 3/16 stock no problem with basic 1/8" 6010/11 and 7014 rods running on any old 220v stick welder, most of which are capable of 200+ amps AC or ~150 amps DC.
Reply:Originally Posted by joecool85 I've already decided that unless an inexpensive "tombstone" lands in my lap, I will be planning on getting something with fine tuning on the amps like a Hobart Stickmate/Miller Thunderbolt.  I've even considered waiting a bit longer and going with a Maxstar 150S inverter welder.  I know they are pricey, but it sure would be nice and portable.  And being able to weld on 110v when needed could be handy if I had to do something away from home.  All that said, I could just keep my cheapy 50A 110v box for welding away from home (obviously wouldn't be doing anything big without 220v access anyway) then I could put a nice set of pneumatic tires on a small chassis for the Stickmate/Thunderbolt/other heavy transformer welder.  Whatever I get will be stored in my basement and need to go up the stairs and outside to use.  I have no garage, so I work outside only - one of the many reasons I've fond of stick over MIG or TIG.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveIf you are looking for a nice small stick/tig - there are cheaper ones than the Maxstar 150s and weld just as well.I have an ESAB 161 stick/tig and it welds identical to the Maxstar 150s I had and is a very nice little tig welder too.Often the ESAB (and Tweco/Thermal Arc) units can be bought new for what the Maxstar sells used.Here the stick only package, with case, is $515:http://www.bakersgas.com/ESA05580119...FQgoaQodH_wMkAIt also will tig if you add the tig torch and regulator at a later time.