Dozer retreading

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First off hello board! Im going to tackle retreading my 450 JD G series dozer and would like some tips. The pads and new grouser stock are both in the high 20's Rockwell C scale. I plan on zipping off the pads with my impact (bolt heads still in great shape plus it will be in the shop so all my tools will be right there), sticking them in the electric oven I just scored (for free) and getting them up to 200 degrees after tacking. Im told that tacking the end four corners with a .050" shim or so under the flat is a good idea to let it draw down once the weld cools. Ill be using my snapon muscle mig 250 which I think the paperwork says is a 185amp. Also told that flux-cored wire should be my choice and maybe CO2? Now the guy that told me this I don't really know that well and since I'm a machinist, not a welder, I thought it be a better idea to throw this out there. Any help/tips is much appreciated!
Reply:I was a JD "industrial" (meaning construction equipment) mechanic for many years.  We never built up the grousers on any of the JD equipment.  The only times I welded on grouser bars it was on a D8 and the pads were welded while on the machine.  We got the machine up off the ground so it was easy to turn the tracks.  We would weld one side of the grouser at the sprocket end and weld the other side of it when it got to the idler end.  Each side was done in one pass with no pre heat we used Lincoln NS3M flux cored wire at (if I remember right it's been almost 20 years back) over 400 amps.  Even the smallest NS3M won't run on your welder but I'm sure there is an acceptable substitute that will work.  Hopefully some of this helps, I know there are some members of the board that are still doing construction equipment repair and maybe they will chime in.
Reply:I looked into pads hoping they would be cheaper but at 1,800$ Ill do a LOT of welding before I hand that over. I bought this stock with the chamfers for welding already in place for 300$. Just cut to length and weld is the selling point. I just want to make sure that its 300 well spent! thanks for sharing!
Reply:why dont you stick weld it, 7018....you can get a cheap welder that has enough amps todo it...A while back I was looking to put grouser stock onto a Jd450 track loader, but didnt get that machine and ended up with a D-58 komatsu , that had good tracks on it for now..Of all the things I lost I miss my mind the most...I know just enough about everything to be dangerous......You cant cure stupid..only kill it...
Reply:I've seen and driven an old Cletrac that had Bolts welded on alternately spaced to act as Ice Grousers with 6011 and sitting in my shop right now is a CAT Twenty that had replacement grouser material as you describe welded on with Stainless rod! This is also recommended as an Okay substitute as long as it is Austentic(?)I just checked a CAT Conservation Bulletin which states that some preheat is necessary even with a LO-HY rod like 7018, so yes 200 degrees would be fine. Using an ER-70(70,000psi) should mimic the properties of a 7018 rod as far as strength. They recommend 1/32 of an inch gap to allow for full penetration using stick plus the heat of welding should give you the heat necessary to minimize cracking. They recommend 4 side tacking, then weld one pass on side, then the other side, alternating back to the first side for the third pass, then the fourth pass on the second side.Clear as mud?
Reply:I've done 450's in the past.  You should be able to order grouser stock, precut, ready to weld from your steel supplier.  I have migged mine with .045, fluxcore would probably be better.  Ground each pad so arc doesn't go through bushings. An old timer told me to cut the grousers off at 45 degrees when done and it turns better and wont tear up the final drives. I made a plasma jig to do that.  Everything was done on the machine, just jack up one side and you can move the track with a crowbar to optimize weld position.  If you do take pads off, they take track specific bolts.
Reply:blackbart, you are referring to the corners of the bar stock, correct? As I agree 100%!
Reply:Originally Posted by blackbartI've done 450's in the past.  You should be able to order grouser stock, precut, ready to weld from your steel supplier.  I have migged mine with .045, fluxcore would probably be better.  Ground each pad so arc doesn't go through bushings. An old timer told me to cut the grousers off at 45 degrees when done and it turns better and wont tear up the final drives. I made a plasma jig to do that.  Everything was done on the machine, just jack up one side and you can move the track with a crowbar to optimize weld position.  If you do take pads off, they take track specific bolts.
Reply:I usually see the corners worn down and built back up with some rebar chunks (difficult to look at for me). I know my current flat loader pads are horrible at providing traction AND are horrible for turning because you get a huge pile of top residue where you do turn. I rented a cat D5C LGP a while back and it had real tall traction bars and I think it was easier on the dirt cause it sat up on those teeth instead of clear cutting like mine. I imagine either pad would ruin your yard!
Reply:Last time I put grouser bars on was on a D-6 Cat. I did it on the machine and the bars were pre cut. I tack welded the grousers on at the center point and worked to the outsides of the grouser bar. once I got to a point where the gap between the pad and grouser bar got to wide(Approx. 3/16") I stopped my weld and moved onto the next pad. after all the grousers where on I hit the outside edge of each grouser bar with the rosebud, then hit them down with a hammer. after that I finished off the welds. everything was welded with NR211, .068 dia.
Reply:Backed my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:I don't remember which flux wire we used but the old lincoln LN 22  squirt weld would just about do a side in a single pass , used too build up the grousers on Cat 977 . they had three grousers per pad  and we only welded up two . Got  hex stock from steel supplier all ready cut to length. I think we only retreaded them twice ,because by then the pads were to thin. and needed to be replaced . gxbxc
Reply:Originally Posted by drujininblackbart, you are referring to the corners of the bar stock, correct? As I agree 100%!
Reply:The last time I did it with grouser stock, I had several grousers break in half after years of use. I blame it on cheaper steel since it is the same thing I have done before. They didn't break at the welds, they just had pieces break.
Reply:www.allmetals.com is where I pick up my grouser stock.  I couldn't figure out how to link to the grouser page, but it will give you an idea of what sizes and shapes are available. I wouldn't get to technical about oven heating pads, it might help, I don't know. I haven't seemed to damage any just welding it.
Reply:If you try to remove all the pads (which I wouldn't), you might look up my thread on "xtractalloy bolt removal" because I doubt they will all come out. For the people that say don't do it, it just depends on the rest of the undercarraige wear.  You can make inspection gauges out of cardboard to see how much life is left in the rollers, sprockets, pins and idlers.  Track work is like muffler work, nothing goes right. I take apart as little as possible, and EVERYTHING goes back together with antisieze, the next guy will thank you. Sometimes, if you work for a busy corp, just buying everything new, especially upgrading to a fully sealed system like Berco tracks are worth it. Old dry pin designs can have all the pins pushed out and rotated, although I have never done it. Old timers used to build up sprockets, idlers, rollers and grousers with weld filler, but it isn't common any more due to the time involved. I used to hire a track guy whose only skill was swinging a 25LB sledge hammer. I could work on a track pin all day, then he would come up and knock it out with a couple well placed hits in 5 minutes.   If he missed, he would end up a block away, but he never missed, he should of been in baseball.
Reply:Originally Posted by Burnt GloveLast time I put grouser bars on was on a D-6 Cat. I did it on the machine and the bars were pre cut. I tack welded the grousers on at the center point and worked to the outsides of the grouser bar. once I got to a point where the gap between the pad and grouser bar got to wide(Approx. 3/16") I stopped my weld and moved onto the next pad. after all the grousers where on I hit the outside edge of each grouser bar with the rosebud, then hit them down with a hammer. after that I finished off the welds. everything was welded with NR211, .068 dia.
Reply:I Agree 7018 would be better, it's just not what I used on the last two jobs due to available equipment.  I haven't had weld failures, but a 450 isn't a D8, so maybe I just got lucky.  Warpage like you described is another good reason not to remove pads.
Reply:Hi guys,pardon my ignorance,could someone show a picture of this so I know what a grouser pad is? The last time I worked on a tracked vehicle was on an old Manitowoc crane back in 78... Thanks, Jim
Reply:this is a pic of a pad with grouser already on itOf all the things I lost I miss my mind the most...I know just enough about everything to be dangerous......You cant cure stupid..only kill it...
Reply:complete tracksOf all the things I lost I miss my mind the most...I know just enough about everything to be dangerous......You cant cure stupid..only kill it...
Reply:Here is a page of stock gouser stock from my supplier. Attached Images
Reply:Thanks for sharing blackbart. Im guessing what I have is closest to GRB#2 on that page. Got the stuff from www.titussteel.com They call it TK-1 and also their smallest offering. I didn't want anything huge and this should add the oomph I want to scalp all the heavy brush off the top and reclaim pasture. Its amazing to me how a machine that weighs around 18k just slips once you push the top 2" off.
Reply:Originally Posted by jhubertThanks for sharing blackbart. Im guessing what I have is closest to GRB#2 on that page. Got the stuff from www.titussteel.com They call it TK-1 and also their smallest offering. I didn't want anything huge and this should add the oomph I want to scalp all the heavy brush off the top and reclaim pasture. Its amazing to me how a machine that weighs around 18k just slips once you push the top 2" off.
Reply:Originally Posted by jhubertThanks for sharing blackbart. Im guessing what I have is closest to GRB#2 on that page. Got the stuff from www.titussteel.com They call it TK-1 and also their smallest offering. I didn't want anything huge and this should add the oomph I want to scalp all the heavy brush off the top and reclaim pasture. Its amazing to me how a machine that weighs around 18k just slips once you push the top 2" off.Originally Posted by roadkillbobbwould brush hogging and then plowing over be any better?  how thick around is the heaviest brush?
Reply:Years ago when I had both 450's available to me (case & JD) it felt like the case had more traction pushing and the JD had more traction pulling. I would lose traction with the JD trying to climb hills with little brush on them.