Beginner stick welder, vertical up critique.

admin

I know you guys probably get a little tired of threads like these but I also know there is a huge knowledge base to draw from here, and as I love to learn I figured I'd ask. I just started stick welding, practicing after work when I get the time. I've got about fifteen pounds of 1/8" 7018 under my belt and have done tons of reading and watched a few of Jody's videos. This is vertical up practice, just a bunch of beads run on a piece of angle, I believe 5/16" with 2.5" to 3" legs. Run on a Syncowave 351, amperage was about 125.
Reply:No picts shown. Amps seem right for 1/8" 7018..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Sorry about the lack of a picture, the photo uploading on here is clunky at best
Reply:Not bad. Consistency needs some work but that will come with practice. You need to hold the toes a bit longer and pass across the middle just a hair faster. That will flatten out the bead profile more and fill the toes. You are borderline with undercut at the edge in a few places on the right. Nothing serious, but if you had moved just a hair sooner you would have had issues. Might also be you are favoring the other side slightly with your rod angle possibly.I tell students to watch the puddle chase the arc in vertical. When they hit the side, they need to pause and wait for the puddle to catch up to the arc, before heading back over to the other side. There also is a distinct sound change that often occurs when the puddle catches the arc some pick up easily.  Vertical up will teach you to read the puddle if you haven't already done so..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Any particular reason you're doing stringer beads instead of a weave? Angle will mess you up trying to learn because the radius on the inside corner is already partially filled in. Looks really good for just learning. I've seen journeyman have trouble doing it as good as you have.
Reply:Consistency is my biggest hurdle to get over so far, as you said, that'll get better with practice, and holding the toes is something I'm learning to hold a little longer as I go. My first few pounds of rod I was getting really bad undercut. No real reason for running the stringers, other than that's what I thought the 3g and 4g plate tests required. I ran a fairly wide and flat first pass in the corner of the angle then was able to put three small stringers on top of that one. Thanks for the tips and critique so far!
Reply:Originally Posted by Welder DaveAny particular reason you're doing stringer beads instead of a weave? Angle will mess you up trying to learn because the radius on the inside corner is already partially filled in. Looks really good for just learning. I've seen journeyman have trouble doing it as good as you have.
Reply:I run my stringers the same way I run a weave. I just don't go side to side as much.I use a super exaggerated weave to usually get students to understand having the puddle chase the arc. I find if I  run across like 1" they can more easily pick up when I pause at the ends and watch the puddle fill before I move up and start back across. It 'looks like crap, but it lets the students see what is happening better. Then I reduce my weave making sure each time they can still pick up when I pause at the ends. By the time I'm done, and doing "stringers" my side to side motion is just a wiggle and there is almost no pause on each end. By that time they usually can't pick things up until they have run a few dozen or so..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Generally vertical up 7018 is done with a weave unless it's specified to do stringers. A weave is easier. What's interesting is I had a conversation a few years ago regarding weave width and what is acceptable. Couldn't find a definitive answer so e-mailed Walter Sperco who is one of the top people involved with ASME codes. He said he'd challenge any welding procedure that limits the width of a weave on standard grades of steel. When asked about grain structure, he said it makes such little difference it wouldn't have a noticeable affect on strength and actually putting more heat into the steel is better. I was surprised by his strong feelings on the subject. I explained I worked in a shop and they limited weave width to 2 1/2 times rod diameter and he said a lot of quality control personnel don't even bother to look at what the code allows and just go by what has been done in the past. He further said the 2 1/2 or 3 times max. weave is an old wives tale that isn't listed in any code. Basically it's like a horizontal weld and as long as you don't get slag inclusions, you're good to go. Now on material like stainless, then you may need to limit heat input and weave width.
Reply:I've been planning on starting to run some weaves. I'm not sure if the 3g and 4g plate tests I'll be doing will allow for a weave, but I want to make sure I have the ability to run them is the tests allow. I picked up on the quick travel speed across the center of the groove and the pausing on the toes from Jody's plate test tips videos. Now I just need to get done more stinger time under my belt
Reply:Shoot, I'll admit I've turned in pipe tests that looked like that  and they passed xray...visual didn't look so hot, about like yours.. no offense, yours is looking good for a even mildly experienced guy. It's the real world conditions that will test your ability down the road! And in all the jobs I've been on, I can count on one hand how many times I've been allowed to use a weave. (Inspected work) maybe just where I've worked, who knows.
Reply:I think those look pretty darn good! I know I've used a Syncowave before, but only to Tig weld with. If it's anything like my Dynasty, there are way better SMAW machines out there. Do you have access to another welding machine?What brand of 7018 are you running?Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWI run my stringers the same way I run a weave. I just don't go side to side as much.I use a super exaggerated weave to usually get students to understand having the puddle chase the arc. I find if I  run across like 1" they can more easily pick up when I pause at the ends and watch the puddle fill before I move up and start back across. It 'looks like crap, but it lets the students see what is happening better. Then I reduce my weave making sure each time they can still pick up when I pause at the ends. By the time I'm done, and doing "stringers" my side to side motion is just a wiggle and there is almost no pause on each end. By that time they usually can't pick things up until they have run a few dozen or so.
Reply:Everybody has different comfort levels with different hand positions.  For me, the most comfortable way to do an uphill weld (if I have room to do it this way) is to put the rod in the stinger at the tip like a pencil, straight out.  Wonderful control for progression, less cumbersome, very natural hand movement.  Excellent if your below, at the same level, or above the arc looking down through it (grasp it like a handle bar on a bike).  One of the side benefits is the ability to keep your left hand away from the heat generated by the arc, it's not facing knuckles towards the heat, same with the rod hand.  You can just rest your fingertips on the side of your rod hand to steady it."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:I'm finding this discussion very interesting and informative as well. Being self taught and my own boss with no inspectors around, I've always cursed the "dollops" as well, but my usual cure is to just chase it downhill rather than up. I try to move the project so I can weld on the level whenever possible, but of course there are times when you just can't do that. I am curious about the number of people that talk about holding the rod to steady it. Is that a common practice? I've always just held the stinger with my right hand and kept my left hand free to hold the subject if necessary. I do notice that my hand is getting shakier as I get older, and even moreso when I get out of practice, but I've always been reluctant to hang onto the rod itself due to the heat and potential for shocks.250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC StickF-225 amp Forney AC Stick230 amp Sears AC StickLincoln 180C MIGVictor Medalist 350 O/ACut 50 PlasmaLes
Reply:Those welds look really good for just starting vertical.  Just keep running stringers for practice.
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPI think those look pretty darn good! I know I've used a Syncowave before, but only to Tig weld with. If it's anything like my Dynasty, there are way better SMAW machines out there. Do you have access to another welding machine?What brand of 7018 are you running?
Reply:Sharon you live in Edmonds, I'm on the other side of the pond from you. One Saturday or Sunday if you want to take a road trip, I might be able to help you out some. You would have to take the Edmonds Kingston ferry, and drive south. I'm about 45-minutes south of the Kingston ferry dock. I have two engine drives in the shop, but still have a 1954 Short hood here, and a few electric welders here. If you want to try different welding machines, you're more than welcome.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPSharon you live in Edmonds, I'm on the other side of the pond from you. One Saturday or Sunday if you want to take a road trip, I might be able to help you out some. You would have to take the Edmonds Kingston ferry, and drive south. I'm about 45-minutes south of the Kingston ferry dock. I have two engine drives in the shop, but still have a 1954 Short hood here, and a few electric welders here. If you want to try different welding machines, you're more than welcome.
Reply:Originally Posted by Sharon NeedlesThat would be great! I've been lurking here for a while and know that you're a well respected member of the forum, as well as someone that knows what they're doing. I've been wanting to experience the mythical SA200 arc,  looks like I'll get my chance! We've been really slammed at work the last couple months so it may be a few weeks before I get the time to head over there, but I'm definitely going to take you up on the offer. Much appreciated.
Reply:Hi,  From my experience as a Farmer Welder, I found if you ask ten different Welders to show you how they do verticle up.Every one had a different technique which they had perfected to work well for them. So its best to get a Good qualified Instructor to demonstrate the proper method,  And then be confident enough to keep practising the same method until you have it mastered,, Otherwise you will be forever changing and getting more an more frustrated trying to find the perfect technique for you,  {I know from experience]  Josie
Reply:Originally Posted by JoseyHi,  From my experience as a Farmer Welder, I found if you ask ten different Welders to show you how they do verticle up.Every one had a different technique which they had perfected to work well for them. So its best to get a Good qualified Instructor to demonstrate the proper method,  And then be confident enough to keep practising the same method until you have it mastered,, Otherwise you will be forever changing and getting more an more frustrated trying to find the perfect technique for you,  {I know from experience]  Josie
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammYabbutt, what is the "proper" method?  Sometimes the instructors get it wrong too,
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammYabbutt, what is the "proper" method?  Sometimes the instructors get it wrong too, or like you've said.........they are just one of the 10 different welders you've already talked to.   I'd imagine it's the same with pro golfers.....each one has his own mantra
Reply:There's more than one way to do a lot of welds. Sometimes you can't use your preferred method because the Weld Procedure is rather specific. A Syncrowave works pretty good on stick, not as nice as an SA200 but pretty good. It would be well worth your while to make a trip to CEP's. You'll learn more in 10 minutes that you could learn on your own in 6 month's! The big thing they drilled into you when I was in school was to keep using the same technique you started with. They said don't change your technique for a test because somebody else's works better for them. When you're first learning you can try different techniques and then see what suits you the best.Those look pretty darn good just need to flatten them out a bit but your right there just keep practicing!  I agree with the guy that said fool your mind into thinking it's the flat position.  When I weld 7018 in the flat position I do a slight mini wiggle/very slight up and down motion,  this works great on stringer beads and is what I use, and they come out nice and flat.Psalm 121:1-21 I lift up my eyes to the hills—    where does my help come from?2 My help comes from the Lord,    the Maker of heaven and earth.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWHad a bit of discussion about this last class... I constantly tell students, what works for me, may not work for them...
Reply:Originally Posted by whtbaronSo when they get to arcing, do you let them steady the rod with their free hand, or teach them to control it by the stinger only?
Reply:Originally Posted by whtbaronSo when they get to arcing, do you let them steady the rod with their free hand, or teach them to control it by the stinger only?
Reply:Originally Posted by Sharon Needles........... All passes in the above picture were Lincoln Excalibur, hot out of the oven. I've also run a few pounds of Home Depot Lincoln rod, garbage on DCEP but they actually run OK on AC. Thanks again to everybody for the insight!
Reply:Interesting... it never really occurred to me to use both hands. Lots of times when I'm putting broken parts back together there aren't any good ways to clamp the parts so I'm using the left hand to hold things together while I tack.250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC StickF-225 amp Forney AC Stick230 amp Sears AC StickLincoln 180C MIGVictor Medalist 350 O/ACut 50 PlasmaLes
Reply:I usually rest the rod on my left index finder, strike the arc, and about halfway through the rod move my left hand out of the way and finish the rod with one hand, except if im in a spot where i have to weld left handed, then i rest the rod ob my right index finger, and then move my right hand onto the stinger to steady myself halfway through
Reply:Originally Posted by whtbaronInteresting... it never really occurred to me to use both hands. Lots of times when I'm putting broken parts back together there aren't any good ways to clamp the parts so I'm using the left hand to hold things together while I tack.
Reply:Whenever possible try to avoid the crash and burn one hand technique. When you get consistent, then you can practice with one hand. If you want to challenge yourself, roll weld some pipe holding a big hand controller for the power rolls in free hand and welding with the other. I've had to weld tanks by rolling them with the overhead crane. Now that's awkward holding the huge crane control. There are times when you need to use one hand and it's good to practice. Practice with your other hand too but figure out how to weld first.