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Have been trouble shooting some oil coming out of the breather with Duane's help. Last night I took off the thingmabob exposing the piston heads and found this. the silver part of the head has some pitting and what I would describe as something similar to welding spatter on them. Wondering if this is normal - guessing it is not. The first pic is from the side that is blowing oil up into the air cleaner assembly. The second pic is the other side. Attached ImagesWeldanpower 225 G7Ironworkers Local #24
Reply:You have either a broken compression ring, or a bad/broken oil ring where the clean aluminum is.Best pull the piston/rod assembly, put new rings in it. Don't forget to hone the cylinders to assist in getting the rings to seat.MarkI haven't always been a nurse........Craftsman 12"x36" LatheEnco G-30B MillHobart Handler 175Lincoln WeldandPower 225 AC/DC G-7 CV/CCAdd a Foot Pedal to a Harbor Freight Chicago Electric 165A DC TIG PapaLion's Gate Build
Reply:Yup. Definately not good. Beginning stages of burned pistons which will need to be changed as well. Ring grooves are likely worn out of specs at this point.Member onanparts.com (TJ) http://onanparts.com/ can help you out with everything you'll need.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:if the cylinder heads have the same burning on them, should I replace them or refurbish them? How does this kind of wear happen?Weldanpower 225 G7Ironworkers Local #24
Reply:The shiny portion of the piston is from getting washed by excessive oil or blowby from broken rings. The head may or may not be washed in a similar fashion. If it is washed in the same spot as the piston, it's from oil. Unless there is a crack in that area, a good cleaning should be all it needs. Any competent machine shop could check for hairline cracks.Most heads don't need much more than a good cleaning. At the most a quick surfacing of the head mating surface to ensure a flat surface is all that's needed.If your cylinder is worn, i.e. has gouges from the broken rings, it may need bored with an oversize piston fitted. The machine shop can do this for you also. The biggest things you need to look for are a definite ridge at the top of the cylinder, cylinder taper & obvious gouges in the cylinder wall. If the taper isn't bad, I've done a couple engines where the piston skirt was knurled & hand fit to the cylinder. But those weren't engines expected to live very long & were running at low rpm (1000-1500 rpm).Keep us posted on what you find.MarkI haven't always been a nurse........Craftsman 12"x36" LatheEnco G-30B MillHobart Handler 175Lincoln WeldandPower 225 AC/DC G-7 CV/CCAdd a Foot Pedal to a Harbor Freight Chicago Electric 165A DC TIG PapaLion's Gate Build
Reply:Not sure why I thought that was an Onan. Disregard the suggestion to get parts from TJ. Lean fuel/air mixture and/or overheating are common causes of burned pistons. Check the heads for being flat at gasket surface and resurface as needed.Mark beat me to the head question. Posted while I was typing. Last edited by duaneb55; 05-01-2011 at 12:10 PM.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:be sure to check out the PCV area also as it kinda looks like some oil is being drawn in through the valve stem area also.Have you checked the rings yet for breakage or wear?
Reply:shot of the cylinder heads with their matching piston heads. My thoughts right now are to buy an overhaul kit because I need to replace some gaskets, and they come with new rings and piston heads. Right track? When I get the cylinders cleaned out, I will take a shot of those as well. From what I can see now they both look undamaged. Thing about this which makes me happy is now I can c-l-e-a-n this machine. Since I have the cover off the welder part of the machine, is there anything else I should look at closely. My amateur, cursory, visual inspection doesnt reveal any show stoppers.Fellows, I greatly appreciate your input. Attached ImagesWeldanpower 225 G7Ironworkers Local #24
Reply:Originally Posted by A.Gillinghambe sure to check out the PCV area also as it kinda looks like some oil is being drawn in through the valve stem area also.Have you checked the rings yet for breakage or wear?
Reply:" Playing with rings " ??? LOL They should stick out once out of the bore ...that is the expansion built into them which causes them to stay in contact with the bore.. There are inexpensive tools made to remove rings which will not mess up the lands of the piston... suggest you find one of them prior to any more ' playing'... if you break a piston ring land you will have more expense getting this back to running...Weldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.
Reply:Duly noted GBM. Thanks for that tip.Weldanpower 225 G7Ironworkers Local #24
Reply:Knurling the piston side to get it back to specs used to be done regularly...and is perfectly legit... but I doubt many modern machinists are trained to do that..... they may be able to clean up the land on the lathe to a wider size though... Since you have broken at least one ring... if you measure and find that it is only the up and down wear of the piston land that is ' excessive' .... you might check with these people :http://www.deves.com/They either have rings wider or can make them to fit your needs...Weldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.
Reply:What year is the welder? If it is 60's or older, it probably doesn't have a PCV, just a vent to the air. If I remember correctly, it was 1963 or 1964 the auto manufacturer's started putting the Positive Crankcase Ventilation valves in. Up to that point, it was just a vent from the valve cover down the side of the engine.The piston ring expander is like a pair of pliers. Minimal cost ($10-15) & will save your rings. Most times, new rings aren't that expensive. At least not when compared to a gasket set. An overhaul kit might be a good idea, depending on the amount of wear internally.The knurling can be done at most any engine machine shop. But don't expect the engine to last if it runs over 3000 rpm. By last, I mean run 2000-4000 hours. If you are lucky it will last about 600 hours at 3000 rpm. Slower speed (1200-1800 rpm), it will last a lifetime.MarkI haven't always been a nurse........Craftsman 12"x36" LatheEnco G-30B MillHobart Handler 175Lincoln WeldandPower 225 AC/DC G-7 CV/CCAdd a Foot Pedal to a Harbor Freight Chicago Electric 165A DC TIG PapaLion's Gate Build
Reply:That pitting is usually caused by detonation (pinging) caused by a lean condition, hot spots, overheating, bad fuel, timing problems, and a lot of other things. My guess is that the thing was often run with stale fuel which loses its octane rating over time and detonates easier. It blows away the boundry layer of cool air fuel mix and starts to melt the surface of the piston which flakes off. The reason its opposite the plug is because thats where the two flame fronts meet and cause the damage. Your looking at at least 2 new pistons. The heads can probably be saved if the gasket surface is good and they arent cracked, just clean up any sharp areas and smooth the rough parts out a little.
Reply:the previous owner, I can almost guarantee, used stale gas. He is quite a piece of work...New pistons, part of an overhaul kit, are being ordered this weekend. Stay tuned cause if I cant get it back together, or if I do and it wont run, I'll be asking a lot of questions.Weldanpower 225 G7Ironworkers Local #24
Reply:If you need the engine specs you can get them here http://outdoorpowerinfo.com/engine_specs/ in the Briggs & Stratton section under Small Engines Specs Index to the left of the first page. Refer to the L-head Opposed Twin Cylinder figures.Last edited by duaneb55; 05-07-2011 at 11:13 AM.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:last week, I was finding engine overhaul kits, for my model #402445 online. Today Ive spent over an hour looking and can not find one. I would prefer a kit, because ordering the parts piecemeal is not something I do well. I inevitably end up missing parts or something. Anyone have go to links for something like this?Weldanpower 225 G7Ironworkers Local #24
Reply:I work on high performance motorcycles all the time. Those pistons and heads show the result of a lean a/f ratio and the telling thing is the brittle rings.You have carburetor issues, either a partially plugged main jet or an air leak between the mixer and the intake flange. Something in the induction tract is amiss. Keep in mind that this new fangled gas is the pits. I've taken to running marine Stabil continuously, in all my small engines.Obama gas (pun intended) will gum up and varnish in short order, clogging main jets, idle passages and emulsion tubes. The passages and holes are very small because the carb(s) don't atomize much gas in a small engine.The engine is running way too hot. That hammered (pitting) look is the result of extremely high combustion chamber temperatures, I'm suprised you didn't hear the engine knocking (which is pre-ignition from a superheated combustion chamber).In a water cooled engine you can get away with a lean a/f ratio because the coolant carries away the excess heat better than ambient (forced) air in an air cooled motor.Pull the plugs and look at the ends. If there is piston on the electrodes (it went somewhere), that indicates a too lean condition as well. In your picture I see the plugs in the heads. I pull the plugs first thing and check the condition. That tells volumes about what's happening inside.I'd have the heads dye checked (it's cheap) for hairline cracks and replace the pistons and ring sets with new. If you have trouble sourcing pistons, call Wiesco, in Eastlake, Ohio. They stock pistoms for just about any engine ever made and will have matched ring sets as well, plus they will fit and end gap your rings for a nominal price.I'd be pulling the valves and checking the stem to guide wear as well as the seating face between the head and backside of the valves themselves, especially the exhaust valve.End gapping rings is easy so long as you have the spec but if you don't. the supplier will.In the quest for power, I've roasted a few motors. You were on your way.
Reply:If they do not have them check with Deves.com also.....Be sure to investigate whether the rings are chrome or cast iron... as the bore prep is different....See if that seating face is Stellite With it opened up it is not too hard to install them.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellitehttp://books.google.com/books?id=it1...20face&f=falseLast edited by GBM; 05-07-2011 at 06:45 PM.Weldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.
Reply:carb needs work, or replaced. Check. The rest is a bit over my head my man."I'd be pulling the valves and checking the stem to guide wear as well as the seating face between the head and backside of the valves themselves, especially the exhaust valve."completely over my head. Is there a book, website, or otherwise that will explain that to me? Since I got this guy I have been running stabil in the gas. That obviously doesnt undo how ever many years of not running with it. when this adventure all began with the muffler challenge, I may have heard some knocking. Although I dont know if I know what it sounds like.GBM, rings look like cast, although I will try and source that better.You guys are great! While my wife is getting crazy at "one more thing to fix" (the on/off valve on the fuel tank is shot too) , I dont mind at all. I know when this is all done and running again, this is going to be a great tool that I will make tons of dough with.Last edited by tenpins; 05-07-2011 at 08:47 PM.Weldanpower 225 G7Ironworkers Local #24
Reply:I should have said " check to see if Chrome rings are available "... you might want to use them to replace whatever kind you have....but you should Google Briggs and Stratton Chrome Rings and read about it first... sometimes they make rebuilding easier depending on the type of bore you have..or equipment to do it alternatively.... If you check at your local community college... see what text they are using for ' small air cooled engine repair ' courses ... then check on Amazon for that book used... that is a good place to start... you need to understand the basics and relationships to keep from getting in trouble ( read cost extra )... No one was born with this information... but learning it is SO much easier than in the old days...Weldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.
Reply:Originally Posted by tenpinscarb needs work, or replaced. Check. The rest is a bit over my head my man."I'd be pulling the valves and checking the stem to guide wear as well as the seating face between the head and backside of the valves themselves, especially the exhaust valve."completely over my head. Is there a book, website, or otherwise that will explain that to me? Since I got this guy I have been running stabil in the gas. That obviously doesnt undo how ever many years of not running with it. when this adventure all began with the muffler challenge, I may have heard some knocking. Although I dont know if I know what it sounds like.GBM, rings look like cast, although I will try and source that better.You guys are great! While my wife is getting crazy at "one more thing to fix" (the on/off valve on the fuel tank is shot too) , I dont mind at all. I know when this is all done and running again, this is going to be a great tool that I will make tons of dough with.
Reply:Fluid Dynamics is easy..............Supposed to flow "X" amount, now it isn't. Sucker is fuched up. Time for a rebuild!Actually much more complicated, but that's how a shade tree mechanic does it. Go to the library, call the local Briggs & Stratton dealer and in the end you will find Google is your friend.Go here: http://www.briggsandstratton.com/eng...ators-manuals/, enter model number from the engine & download your manual.Good luck & keep us informed.MarkI haven't always been a nurse........Craftsman 12"x36" LatheEnco G-30B MillHobart Handler 175Lincoln WeldandPower 225 AC/DC G-7 CV/CCAdd a Foot Pedal to a Harbor Freight Chicago Electric 165A DC TIG PapaLion's Gate Build
Reply:Guys I think you over thining this. Its just an L head eng. If you have the numbers on the eng, any small eng shop can get them for you. I had no numbers on mine and it took us a while but I found all the info on my kohler in about 2 hours. After rebuilding my eng the guy I used to work for while I was between jobs has taken some welders on. He, by trade, is an electral engineer, so the the gnerator side was no problem for him. He put himself threw collage by working in small eng shops, and now thats what he dose. The piston looks like pre detionation marks. But you have an oil problem too, then then I would pull the pistons out. If there was no knocking then Ill almost bet your crank is ok. On kohler K series its only aloud to be 1 tousands out, not much! Ive rebuilt many of the kohlers, rarely do a briggs. Most times the briggs are so worn out and the matireals they use now isnt worth rebuilding. I didnt know till i read a post from Duane that there were differnt crank tapers on the engs. I used the orignial crank, and dropped in new pistion and rings. I only had to hone out the cylinders, and use oversized rings. I used the cam out of another eng, and the block out of a 3rd eng. Mine had a hole in the block. With commands if a rod breaks, you may as well figure to buy a mini block or short block it. A place you may wanna look if you want a mini block check out Small Eng where house. Sometimes they have the older eng with cracked cooling fins, wont hurt anything, for less than 500 bucks! Thats a buy! All you would have to do is swap out your crank. Heres my rebuild. I know some of you have seen it, but It was the first welder I did so Im kinda proud of the job. Attached Images
Reply:And heres a Magnum Im working on now. This was the wort eng Ive ever been into so far. I wish I was close to ya Id love to be able to help you out. Attached ImagesHow do I know if I order standard piston heads and rings or some of the oversized sets?Weldanpower 225 G7Ironworkers Local #24
Reply:You will have to measure the piston & bore of the cylinder. Then the difference between the two is the clearance. That number must be within a range of "tolerance" listed for that motor. The same will need to be done for the crank/rod bearings.If you don't have a way of measuring the bore/pistons, crank/rod throws the machine shop can do the measuring for you. They can probably order the parts & perform the machine work too.MarkI haven't always been a nurse........Craftsman 12"x36" LatheEnco G-30B MillHobart Handler 175Lincoln WeldandPower 225 AC/DC G-7 CV/CCAdd a Foot Pedal to a Harbor Freight Chicago Electric 165A DC TIG PapaLion's Gate Build
Reply:Like Mark said you or someone will have to measure it. You take a measurement in 3 spots on the travel of the piston, to make sure the bore isnt egg shaped. Then compair you numbers with what the max dia is, kinda like on a brake drum. If its with in spec, then you can turn it to put the new shoes on. I would have the machine shop do it for you if you not comfortable in doing it your self. Then they can chec the block for flatness and look at yiur valve seats. Most times all youll have to do is lap them in, and your fine. If you have a major failure, and something got into the valve train, you may need new seats or guids. I ran this one for a few months till the oil ring broke. I bored it .30 over, decked the block dang neer even with the piston, and shaved the head .10, and 3 angled the valves, polished the exaust side. It now runs on 110 octane fuel only. Anything less than that it will spark nock. Heres how it looked when I opened it up. It was still on the original pistion from 1964. You can see the burnt piston. Attached Images
Reply:Tenpins, The three places in the bore which are specified to be measured are usually measured two directions.. 90 degrees to each other... for a total of 6 measurements to compare. By taking 'enough' metal off the top of the block and the bottom of the head Vince_o increased the compression ratio thus the engine now requires high test gasoline to operate without preignition ( pinging )... which can damage an engine. Before taking out the pistons you may need to use a carbide ridge reamer... a simple tool which takes off the metal which has been moved by the piston rings upward and now constituting a ridge which might break a ring getting the piston out if not removed.. usually borrowed from local parts house... breaking a ring itself when you are going to replace them is not the problem.. but you can damage the lands of the piston in the process.. which can be a big expense compared to using care in taking it apart.Weldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.
Reply:I agree on the reamer for got about thatGBM my intentions were to hop it up, but not at 8.99 a gal! LOL
Reply:Heres what I measure my bores with. My buddy down the road dose a lot of measuring hyd valves and such and he had some stuff that he replaced and gave me his scraps. I guess it works out well for as much I weld on his tailgate of his little trailer. LOL He likes to back into things! Attached Images
Reply:you can get a 6pack of bore gauges at harbor freight real cheap. around $15 i think. you will need a micrometer to measure them once you open them up in the cylinder and lock them in place and remove themTiger Sales: AHP Distributor www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P, Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma. For Sale: Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun. Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:That combo requires some practice to get good at it... If you have any way to beg , borrow or rent one of the three prong direct reading gauges you will be far ahead of the game. http://www.use-enco.com/cgi/INSRHI?PMSECT=1386http://www.use-enco.com/cgi/INPDFF?P...MITEM=327-9511This is lucky... this one is on sale now... 2-6 inch in the cheaper brand...I may need to get one myself... I know I can not rely on my mic / telescoping gauges ( or my abilities with them )....http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INLMKD?S...01=1&SICOUNT=1Weldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.
Reply:I went to buy the T gauges this afternoon and also bought a digital caliper. Experimenting with them, I am getting a reasonable measurement. Comparing the inside measuring with the caliper to a T gauge on the same spot, Im getting a consistent .25mm difference. Ive measured the cylinders now about 50 times in different spots. Im consistently getting somewhere in the 87mm range - going from the upper limit of standard size (according to my B&S L head manual) into the rejection sizes. I wanted to do this because yesterday I took it to a motorcycle/small engine repair shop. The guy there said he was measuring 89.37mm - 2mm over the standard sizing. This would have put me in the re-sleeve category.So tomorrow, I am going to call up a machine shop I finally found here in town and get a second opinion on the measurement. Thanks everyone for the advice and tips. Hoping to get the re-assembly going this week.Weldanpower 225 G7Ironworkers Local #24
Reply:Can your ( and my ) engine be re sleeved ?Weldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.
Reply:According to the small engine repair manuals I got from the library, yes. I read in one that if it is more than .030, it should be re-sleeved. I was going to find that citation today, but I rebuilt the carb, and other stuff. And beer. Beer always gets in the way.Weldanpower 225 G7Ironworkers Local #24
Reply:Theres a reason for them to give you a spec .030 Id resleve it. With proper care it will last you another 40 years. Now some of my friends bore out there blocks so far they need to put a strap around the jug to keep it from blowing off! This would be the reason for that spec! Please keep us informed in what you do and the final out come.
Reply:took it to the machine guy today; he says he "could do" .010, but its right on the line. So we'll do .020. Ordering piston heads tonight or tomorrow. get it in as soon as possible. Good adventure this has become, Ive learned quite a lot about my engine.Weldanpower 225 G7Ironworkers Local #24
Reply:Good for you! .020 is the way to go if its real close on the 10 over. . Sounds like something was off on the first place if he can do it at 20 over. Youll enjoy it and Ive enjoyed reading this post. |
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发表于 2021-8-31 22:07:36