The 6010/11 Root Pass

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I see this all the time, and I gotta wonder.Ok, if you're welding pipe, or something else with a gap in the fitup, it's golden. But why, on God's Green Earth, would you want a 60xx root pass on most ordinary stuff.  "I put down a 60xx root pass, followed by a 7018 cap"The average fitted joint, on most fabricated stuff, simply has to be welded with 7018 (if it's your rod of choice), and nothing more, don't care how many passes you make.The usual reason, I suppose, is more penetration with the 60xx.  At least it's what most people say.  And I'm amazed by this.Now why???????????????????????? would you want to weaken a lo-hy built up weld with a 60xx root pass????????????????  Or, if not weakening it, why would you want to use something totally unnecessary? It boggles the mind"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Because it's the "in" thing to do, and all the cool pipe welders do it? Practice maybe? It probably isn't detrimental in most non- code situations because welders tend to over weld everything. Good question though.IAMAW Local 330Airco 300 AC/DC HeliwelderAirco Dip-Pak 200 with Profax spool gunPowr-Kraft AC225Everlast PowerArc 200stBuffalo Forge No.21 drill pressSpeedglas 9100xxAirco, Oxweld, Purox, Victor torchesLincoln Ranger 8
Reply:It's something I have thought about also.. I don't understand why people would want to do that. Only thing I can figure is people think pipe welding is all there is.. So they try to use the 6010 that pipewelders use for the root pass.I have told several people to skip the 6010 root pass because it isn't required for most joints. Most of them just don't understand and say "But it gets more penetration".. Whatever.. If they want to run a messy 6010 at an amperage that's way too high (again to get more penetration) and grind all the spatter off that's fine..Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:7010.....The red Hyp stuff.Runs just as good as 5p+++++, if not better.Just a couple welders, big hammers, grinders, and torches.Work will free you.Men in dirty jeans built this country, while men in clean suits have destroyed it. Trump/Carson 2016-2024
Reply:Pipe welders use 5p++++ 6010 because......High penetration, to dig into pipe bevels as root gap can be tighter than ideal. And for making seamless tie in's. Fast freeze puddle allows great manipulation. Barely any slag, so the root bead doesn't get slag inclusions, 6010 burns it out. Can be used in all positions. The thin layer of flux coating fits in the bevel. (Try putting an 1/8"or 5/32" 7018 Rod in a pipe bevel. You can see **** and the flux breaks off the tip)Easy restarts   When I make hangers/supports for pipe I usually tack with 6010, because I can relight the rod very easily. But after tacking if there is not a huge gap I run 7018. I have only met 2 pipe welders that can put in a 7018 root, any one else good luck. Slag inclusions, lack of penetration, fluid/runny puddle allows very little manipulation. If you can make a code weld with a 7018 root you must be some kind of badass. But for me they make 7010/8010. So I will just stick with cellulose rodLast edited by RodBender; 03-09-2015 at 06:49 PM.Local 83
Reply:I get good penetration with 7018. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:^ not a pipe welder my ***!!!Local 83
Reply:Originally Posted by RodBenderPipe welders use 5p++++ 6010 because......High penetration, to dig into pipe bevels as root gap can be tighter than ideal. And for making seamless tie in's. Fast freeze puddle allows great manipulation. Barely any slag, so the root bead doesn't get slag inclusions, 6010 burns it out. Can be used in all positions. The thin layer of flux coating fits in the bevel. (Try putting an 1/8"or 5/32" 7018 Rod in a pipe bevel. You can see **** and the flux breaks off the tip)Easy restarts   When I make hangers/supports for pipe I usually tack with 6010, because I can relight the rod very easily. But after tacking if there is not a huge gap I run 7018. I have only met 2 pipe welders that can put in a 7018 root, any one else good luck. Slag inclusions, lack of penetration, fluid/runny puddle allows very little manipulation. If you can make a code weld with a 7018 root you must be some kind of badass. But for me they make 7010/8010. So I will just stick with cellulose rod
Reply:Root passes without a gap"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by RodBender^ not a pipe welder my ***!!!
Reply:good question. i use either 6010 or 7018. rarely both on the same joint.i.u.o.e. # 15queens, ny and sunny fla
Reply:Hello farmersamm, here's my $.02 to add to the conversation: RodBender has given a very good explanation for all of the reasons that E6010 is used for open-root "pipe" applications, that being said, if full penetration welds are required for structural applications and a backing can't be employed or the backside of the weld joint doesn't present access for back-gouging or back-grinding, then you have to have alternatives. E7018 is a poor rod to try to provide successful open-root applications with good control and full penetration for "MOST" welders. True structural applications won't allow the use of a E60XX series rod, they require E70XX series rods. In those instances you may find some folks will use E7010 as it welds in a similar fashion to the E6010 and still possesses the strength requirements to meet code. However, it still has to have a WPS associated with it to satisfy most inspectors.As to general welding where codes aren't involved and CJP welds aren't required or needed, there is no reason to use a dual rod type regimen. With a couple of exceptions that come to mind: I have been on mill sites where hydraulic tanks developed cracks and there was a lot of oil present and in some cases they were not inclined to perform any draining or even any cleaning and expecting repairs to be made. E6010 does a wonderful job of welding through the oil and grime to seal up the crack enough that E7018 can then be employed over the E6010 to finish the repair. Another example might be where there is some sort of material contained within the weld joint(between the two contacting surfaces) or on the other side of it that is being drawn into the weld pool from the backside and causing problems with the welding puddle. In an instance such as this an individual/welder might consider using the E6010 in the form of a "pisser pass"(a bead just large enough to seal the joint) so that contamination can be eliminated from the preceeding weld passes. Best regards, AllanLast edited by aevald; 03-09-2015 at 07:58 PM.aevald
Reply:Here's some etching results. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Ok I misunderstood the topic. I agree that I don't see the use of putting in a 6010 root when making structure welds with out a gap. For simple beam/tube hangers I use 6010 to tack and weld 1/8th 7018 out.  But I have worked with a few pipe welders that will step in a 5p root pass when welding structural. It does seems useless if you are make a 3/4+ stringer fillet weld.I bet that is 1/8th 7018, right CEP? An iron worker told me they use 1/8th because it penetrates into the parent metal better.Last edited by RodBender; 03-09-2015 at 08:25 PM.Local 83
Reply:Originally Posted by RodBenderI bet that is 1/8th 7018, right CEP?
Reply:Originally Posted by aevaldHello farmersamm, here's my $.02 to add to the conversation: RodBender has given a very good explanation for all of the reasons that E6010 is used for open-root "pipe" applications, that being said, if full penetration welds are required for structural applications and a backing can't be employed or the backside of the weld joint doesn't present access for back-gouging or back-grinding, then you have to have alternatives. E7018 is a poor rod to try to provide successful open-root applications with good control and full penetration for "MOST" welders. True structural applications won't allow the use of a E60XX series rod, they require E70XX series rods. In those instances you may find some folks will use E7010 as it welds in a similar fashion to the E6010 and still possesses the strength requirements to meet code. However, it still has to have a WPS associated with it to satisfy most inspectors.As to general welding where codes aren't involved and CJP welds aren't required or needed, there is no reason to use a dual rod type regimen. With a couple of exceptions that come to mind: I have been on mill sites where hydraulic tanks developed cracks and there was a lot of oil present and in some cases they were not inclined to perform any draining or even any cleaning and expecting repairs to be made. E6010 does a wonderful job of welding through the oil and grime to seal up the crack enough that E7018 can then be employed over the E6010 to finish the repair. Another example might be where there is some sort of material contained within the weld joint(between the two contacting surfaces) or on the other side of it that is being drawn into the weld pool from the backside and causing problems with the welding puddle. In an instance such as this an individual/welder might consider using the E6010 in the form of a "pisser pass"(a bead just large enough to seal the joint) so that contamination can be eliminated from the preceeding weld passes. Best regards, Allan
Reply:I am a pipe welder myself, prefer tig roots, amoung our other pressure tickets I have to hold a regular straight carbon F3/F4 2" 160 with 6010 root/18 fill/cap. However I will admit I still use 6010 to do any tacking on fabrication projects, although any fabrication items that require a fillet joint where the fitment is aces then I do NOT use a 6010 root. Straight to her with 7018, mostly because most items we fabricated are governed by our retarted CWB standards up here in Canada so 6010 is not allowed. One instance where I would use a 6010 root as a first pass is if I were welding a heavy plate gusset/stiffener that is beveled because lets be honest with ourselves you can literally watch a 7018 not dig properly in a joint fit up like that. We struggle like hell to squeeze 9018-B3's into our J-bevel heavy wall chrome. I suppose it would entirely depend on your joint design I say this because fit-up should always be bang on, should never have to reach for a 6010 to compensate for a bad fit up job. Iam definatly not a lover of 6010, I use it when procedure requires on our piping systems, however more often than not I put tig roots in 90% of the time even on piping items that don't require it. Attached ImagesLast edited by Pressure_Welder; 03-09-2015 at 11:10 PM.
Reply:i couldn't imagine myself, or most others, being able to run a root w/ 7018.    The ends of the pipe are thin, 7018 more heat, move slower, i'd be overwelmed by heat quickly.  6 and 5 oclock would have poor pen,  by the time i got to 10 or 12 oclock, the heat and gravity would make a mess.        Typical pipe used for water, steam, gas, other basics, is high 50 to 60,000 tensile strenght, so what are you losing by using a a 60 tensile rod on a small perscentage of the fill.   Once pipe is welded, it usually sits in a hole, hangs or strapped to something, its not seeing the abuse your tractor bucket is.  The inside of the root is important, as for its shape, to prevent erosion into the pipe from whatever is running through it over long lengths of time.  This is done easier, and more consistant, w/ 6010 than 7018 .   The charateristics wanted out of a rod for root arent in  xx18  by a long shot.
Reply:I've run 5p root passes before on well fit fillets in a couple mills. Some, no insult intended, some millwrights want the job done yesterday at all costs. I've been on a couple shutdowns recently where the mill hands had fit up a big job but completely underestimated how long it would take. We came in under the gun and rooted everything with 5p to get some of the junk to burn out. Grease, paint, torch cuts that weren't cleaned up. It was a disaster.
Reply:FWIW,i haven't seen anything posted on WW that would qualify for low-hydrogen with 7018.  least-wise, not by the descriptions given in the posts i've read.seems like the rest of it has been well covered, though.
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPNope! Just a hobbyist.
Reply:Originally Posted by JASPffffft Uh huh.
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPI' am!
Reply:I like 6010 myself but I'm not a professional welder, nor skilled hobbyist. Most things I get hold of are rusty, greasy, nasty broken implements of some sort being in a field someplace needing repaired or put back together. From my experience, 7018 just doesn't like a less than stellar base to burn into although with something either clean or new, it's a great rod. 6010, (for me at least) could be less than the best for the application but it seems to work every time and is reliable. At least that's what I seem to realize.SlobPurveyor of intimate unparalleled knowledge of nothing about everything.Oh yeah, also an unabashed internet "Troll" too.....
Reply:Originally Posted by SlobWell, at least I believe you.Originally Posted by CEPHe knows just as well as I do, that I'm just a hobbyist. He likes to be difficult! For the last 30-years, if I go right, he goes left.
Reply:Originally Posted by SlobI like 6010 myself but I'm not a professional welder, nor skilled hobbyist. Most things I get hold of are rusty, greasy, nasty broken implements of some sort being in a field someplace needing repaired or put back together. From my experience, 7018 just doesn't like a less than stellar base to burn into although with something either clean or new, it's a great rod. 6010, (for me at least) could be less than the best for the application but it seems to work every time and is reliable. At least that's what I seem to realize.
Reply:The fast freezing, ability to cut through grim, oil, etc, and the ease of vertical welding is why the 6010/11 is reached for most where I work.  Anything safety wise, we run 7018.And for the record, this forum has made me more apt to grab 7018 here recently....
Reply:6010 5P+, all I use for roots. 7018 the rest. I love the smell of 5P+ in the morning. I prefer to run a 1/8 gap, and never bothered with trying to run 7018 for root and all. As stated, 7018 will is not as friendly with slag, that pic above sums it all up. For the work I do, all that slag will end up in the boiler, chiller, tower or pump strainer. Customers really dont like that....Anything non-pipe I just run 7018.Lincoln Power MIG 210 MP ( boat anchor )Lincoln Weld-Pac 100 HDHobart IronMan 230Cutmaster 42Jackson NexGenSumner Ultra ClampsDWM120
Reply:I agree with madmax- 6010 smells better.Some folks have waayy too much time on their hands.'contaminating tungstens like there's no tomorrow'