Brass or Bronze question

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I need to remove a column in a basement for a customer. The floor is done in stained decorative concrete, and once the column is removed, I'll have to fill and "plug" the hole. The original plan was that the owners husband who did the original work, would do a thin concrete overlay to either match the surrounding area or do a decorative emblem, say a compass rose, but when he passed away, that's no longer a viable option.Game plan is to rough cut the column  fairly close to the floor ( say 1/2" or 3/4"), without damaging the floor, probably with either my Sawzall or Portaband. Once the main column is out of the way, I'll cut the rest off below the concrete floor using a die grinder and 2" zip wheel as far down as is practical. Then slit the piece vertical if possible with the zip wheel or drill vertically down thru the steel wall to remove the majority of the material, in 2 or 3 places, and fold the walls in to the center to remove whatever sticks up and allow me to fit the "patch" in as close to the crete as possible.One thought was to machine a round brass or bronze disk  on my lathe to match the approximate OD of the steel column, and use that as the decorative fill. Never really worked much with either material, so I'm looking for some thoughts and suggestions. 1st I'd need to have an idea what alloy/s I should be looking for / thinking about. Rough plan was to maybe solder or braze a short shaft to the back of a 5-6" piece of 1/4" plate, so I could chuck it in the 3 jaw chuck of the lathe. Thus what ever I choose needs to be suitable for solder/brazing as I will want the top to stay smooth.  I'll probably  get another smaller piece of brass/bronze rod ( say maybe 1" dia) I can solder/braze to the back so I can chuck it up. I'd prefer not to drill the face  and use fasteners to mount this in the lathe. I'm open to other suggestions as well. CNC plasma or water cutting probably won't be cost effective, and if I have to turn down the diameter slightly to get a nice fit, it kind of leaves me back at square one again.2nd I was thinking about how to go about getting a nice finish on the surface. I'm thinking bronze/brass due to the floor color. I'm thinking some sort of oiled bronze, antiqued brass finish might either get me close to the color or at least  go well with the browns used in the floor. She already knows we won't get an exact match and is OK with that. Any one have any suggestions about how to go about getting those kinds of finishes and what alloy might be the best choice?Thus I need a  commonly available, machinable brass or bronze alloy, that can be soldered/brazed and will take a nice antiqued finish. Suggestions on a suitable material that can be soldered to the back to chuck it up ( thinking about just a piece of common brass), and suggestions on soldering/ brazing alloy ( thinking right now about either lead solder which I have plenty of, silver solder which I may have, but will have to hunt for or buy, or brazing rod which I'm not sure I still have any left so probably would need to buy). Solder/ braze needs to be able to withstand turning the outside diameter down to finish dimension on the lathe. Also suggestions on finishing techniques.A few picts of the column I'll have to remove. Note column is NOT supporting the steel beam above it. We removed the wooden triple 2x8's that the column originally supported when I cut the floor and installed the new oak stair case. There's a inch of space between the screw at the top and the steel beam, even if the picts don't show it clearly. Steel beam rests on a 2nd steel column that's hidden in the oak post at the base of the stairs..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Finishes I have no idea. Lead solder is horribly soft and I would not use it. Cast Bronze I can tell you is filthy dirty and does not silver braze well. Brass silver brazes very well, especially brass to brass. I used to use Englehard Easyflow45, but is not available in California any longer because of the cadmium. Safetyflow45 flows like crap. 56% silver braze filler is very close to Easyflow45 and flows very nicely. I use it quite a bit. If you want the Cadmium laced silver braze filler, McmasterCarr has it but it is not cheap. But I tell you the 45% silver with cadmium is the best. Frankly it is the cadmium. White flux works well with either filler on red metals. The black is usually for very high temp metals and high strength silver braze filler. I can send you a 4" strand of 1/16" cad silver if you want.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Could you install a dummy brass floor drain grate.  It would look like it belongs there.  I have also seen brass and stainless floor plates that are used to cover electrical boxes in floors.  They come in diffenent materials and have chamfered edges.  Usually just one screw in the center to hold it in place.Dan
Reply:The brass floor drain or drain plug is my fall back option. Problem is the column is over sized. OD is approximately 5" IIRC. That means I'll either still have to make some sort of "filler" to make up the difference between a stock plug/drain, custom make or alter a larger stock one, or mark and grind the concrete to fit say a 6" unit. Colored grout is one option as a "filler" if I have to go that route. I'd rather not go with a drain simply because I know it will collect dirt and grime all the time. If anything it will probably be a flush drain plug.Grinding the floor to use a larger drain/plug is the very last option if nothing else works. It would solve some issues like the fact the concrete is slightly raised around the column. Down side is she really doesn't want to deal with grit in the basement. There was a miscommunication when we cut the wall and she wasn't happy with the mess when we cut the wall to install the steel beam. There'd be less of a mess, but she'll still resist that option vehemently. I had a hard enough time explaining that grinding out the colunm was the only option and there wouldn't be the same mess there was last time.Thanks for the offer Terry, I'll keep it in mind..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Just wondering, is the column hollow or is it filled with concrete?  Could change your approach to the removal.  Just my thoughts.  Best  Bob
Reply:When you cut the pipe close to the floor can you cut from the inside of the pipe, rather pushing and cutting the outside more.Can you chuck up 5-6"?  If yes, then why not machine down the part rather than brazing a stub. Also, is your plate round or rect.  I tend to think rect. when I hear "plate".   Fill the holes in a drain then machine.  Form a ring or cup for the drain to sit in. Ring could be stainless or copper no evidence of trying to match.????
Reply:I can't help you with the finish but here's what I know about machining brass and bronze. For the most part I've only worked with "free machining" brass and bearing bronze.   Brass is soft and hard to make a chip break on. Be prepared for long stringy chips coming off. Also be careful not to have to much positive rake on the tooling or it will drag your tool in and possibly cause a wreck or otherwise mess up the piece. However it's fairly easy to get a nice shiny finish on with no real "grain" showing. Natural aging doesn't seem to happen to fast with the type of brass that I've dealt with. I've got some 4" round drops that I've had for 15 years or more with very little if any patina on them.   Bronze at least the bearing bronze that I deal with is another thing entirely. It breaks in tiny little chips almost like cast iron. It gets everywhere. Often there's a pronounced grain pattern in the piece if the tool is sharp but buffing with emery cloth will usually hide it. It ages quicker than the brass that I have though it will usually take a few years before it gets very dark. It's usually a reddish brown when aged.   As for mounting on the lathe. Soft soldered would not be my first choice and I'm not fond of the silver solder route either though if done properly it would work. For what you're doing I think I would make a steel mandrel to do the work on. Either take a large (say 3-4" dia) piece of rod and face it flat or take a round steel disc at least 1/4" thick and weld a arbor preferably around say 1 1/2" in dia onto it. Turn and face the disc flat. Then you could use one of several methods to mount the brass to the arbor. If done properly super glue might be a good choice but even good quality double sided tape would do the job. Either would allow you to release the brass disc with a low temp heating compared to any type of solder.   Just some of my thoughts on the subject.Millermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:Not a bad idea there Steve. That might be a good way to go if I do have to enlarge the top some, but it would be fairly expensive to only drill down say 1/4"to 3/8" though. Problem with a core drill is that the floor has radiant tube running thru it. In "theory" they should have kept the tube clear of the columns and tied to the wire mats at the bottom to middle of the slab, but I wasn't there when they poured the floor, so I have no idea where exactly the tubing runs. I had a big discussion with her husband when I had to drill the floor to secure another column on the opposite side for the stairs. He was pretty sure where we sat the column he'd left an open area in the tubing knowing we'd have to place the column after the exact stair location was established. Even so I let HIM drill the 2 holes to set the anchors so if he hit the tube it was HIS fault... My guess is looking at the picts, the footings are at least 18" thick, if not two feet. I'm betting there is bar welded to the sides of the columns as well to increase the load distribution and probably more bar that got tied in later if the columns were set in place 1st.As far as the columns being hollow, I'm going with the plan I discussed with the husband  ( guy just to the left in the 1st pict by the old stairs) when we set the steel beam originally. It was his plan to cut the column almost flush, then take a die grinder to the inside after we discussed some of all of this. From the discussion with him, I believe he thought them hollow.  I wasn't there when he set the columns, so I don't know if he wet set them, or had them in place and poured around them. I've got an old pict of of his guys taking lunch when I showed up one day to talk to him about something else while they were prepping the floor, and another one that shows the holes in the old floor awaiting the footings being poured. The one of them taking lunch is deceptive. Where the column is it looks like they have only partially stoned the sub grade ( note the pipe for drainage in the stone between it and the column to the left.) The area in the foreground and on the left side of the center column hasn't been stoned yet other than to lay down enough stone to deal with the water problem in the basement, and to keep the mud down. The area by the orange water cooler is top of sub grade. I'm guessing he laid at least 2" of rigid foam on that so my guess is bottom of crete should be top of footings you see in the picture.If the column is full of crete, that will complicate things, but not too much. If so I'll have to take the hammer drill and drill a bunch of holes in the crete to weaken it, then go at it with either the jumbo bit, or the chipping hammer before I can get to the steel to use the die grinder. Minor point of interest... The block wall to concrete transition behind the guys is roughly the original floor location shown in the 1st pict. They removed at least 2 feet of material from this entire section of the basement, all done by hand or whith a hand held electric chipping gun, and all the material came out of the basement in 5 gallon buckets. He probably should have gone down at least another foot to 18" since he forgot about the fact the duct work etc would be sticking down and lower the ceiling height. Behind me in the 2nd pict, is the section of the house that was originally crawl space. There they removed almost 4-5 feet on material predominantly by hand, though they were able to punch out a wall eventually and use a skid steer to bucket out the loose debris. Last pict shows that area during prep to pour the new walls.Last edited by DSW; 02-23-2013 at 10:29 AM..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:D,I don't know why you're opposed to patching that floor with cementious overlay and then staining to match.  A machined bronze/brass plug will always look like just that, whereas a stained overlay, while usually not matching 100%, is more appealing to owners and customers.Staining is child'splay, and given it was done some time ago, I'd bet it is an acid based stain as opposed to modern "green" stains.  You should contact someone at WhiteCap if you have one near you, or which ever concrete supply house you use.  My recommendation:-remove column (probably not filled with concrete unless you poured at a 10" slump)-patch with Ardex brand material (best in the business, but pricey)-stain and seal......it's that easy I know you have experience with concrete, go get some stain and play with it sorry it I missed why you don't want to patch in a previous post, I just read "concrete" and "stain" and the blinders come on......it must be a passion thing.Lincoln SA 200Esab Caddy 160Thermal Arc 201TSMiller Dialarc HFI don't like making plans for the day because then the word "premeditated" gets thrown around the courtroom....
Reply:Problem with trying to go with an acid based stain is I have no idea what the original colors, brand or formula was when he did it. He was plying around with a ton of different things at the time, using at least two different stain companies, diluting stains, mixing stains, multiple stains overlays, ragging and sponging, fertilizer on the surface to change the look and a ton of other things. I know a portion of that floor he wasn't happy with the original results, so he went back over them again to change the look. I wasn't working for him at the time he was doing all of this. It was a lot more complicated and advanced than the basic spray on, wash off stuff we did when he 1st got into that. I do know changes in cement ratios etc will drastically alter the appearance of stains even using the exact same formula and techniques. Even he wasn't convinced he could get a "close" match as a lot of what he did, he did on the fly and never made any notes on what he did.I know his other option was a Stoneskin overlay which he'd recently taken a class in. His wife really wants an cement overlay "rug" on the section of the basement floor where the bathroom was going, which he'd planned to do. I've still got to do research on how to do that for the future. Not really looking forward to trying to do that honestly...You have absolutely no idea how hard it is to work with her and colors... I had to redo the stair treads because the light at the top of the stairs was left on so they could see what the stairs looked like when I stained them. The light left a circular spot on the center of the stairs that was extremely noticeable and faded as you went down each tread. I had to sand and restain every tread... When done she was very unhappy because she claimed the treads were all now too light in color as compared to the original color. If you looked at the steps they were almost an exact match to the sides and risers, and from downstairs, you couldn't tell a difference. From the top, they might have looked lighter, since you didn't have the same lighting on the steps as the sides... I used the EXACT same stains ( they wanted a 2 color stain process, red, then walnut over top, followed by the urethane) Exact same technique to apply the stains. The only difference was that in order to get the stairs done while they were away, I had to do 2 of the 4 coats of urethane with quart cans that dried faster because I ran out of the gallon can I'd used on everything else. My guess is some of the color difference came from the fact the quart cans had less solids in them than the gallon cans did, ( hence the reason they dry faster). I wished I'd done what I originally intended and had just refinished the top 5 treads vs the whole stairs so there would have at least been some originals to use as a reference.In the hallway where we did tile, she picked out two tiles in the whole run that were low by less than a 1/32" at more than 15ft by eye. Her husband couldn't even spot the difference, and got out the laser to prove her wrong... She really doesn't grasp the fact that many times you have no choice but to compromise somewhere. You can't have everything the way you want and still match existing conditions. Something that is "deliberately" different removes the very tedious task of trying to get a matching sample that she will approve, then trying to replicate the results exactly a 2nd time with a small batch on the final product. If she wasn't a good friend and one of my best customers, I'd just run far away on these projects. She keeps me semi busy when things are slow, and has referred a lot of others to me for work. I also rent space from her for work and storage, so she gets a lot more time on these projects than I would put out for almost any other customer..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by dubl_tD,sorry it I missed why you don't want to patch in a previous post, I just read "concrete" and "stain" and the blinders come on......it must be a passion thing.
Reply:Good luck man. Customers like her is one major reason I don't do that type of work anymore. I feel your pain. Sorry, I don't have anything to add or suggest.
Reply:Thanks Irish. I wasn't sure about going with a steel mandrel. I may have a chunk of 3" diameter stainless steel rod that I could use, and I know I can easily get a bigger piece of steel when I go see my supplier. Didn't think double sided tape would have taken the "abuse". Super glue is another good trick. I'll probably try those before I'll go the solder/braze route.Also good info on the machining quality of the materials. Not being able to quickly lay my hands on my Machinists handbook is irritating me right now. I know NIBRAL gets machined and welded, as does I believe Silicon bronze, but I've never had the opportunity to work with either of them..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:You'd be surprised what 3" or 4" diameter worth of the good quality double sided tape can do. I've used it before for some project though I must admit that I can't remember the details at the moment. Another note on this is if you use a flat plate with a center in it on the tailstock to push the plate into the taped mandrel you take most of the risks out doing a job like this.   I have to admit that I'm not familiar with the weldable bronzes. I've used a very little bit of the silicon bronze filler metal for a few jobs on cast, and stainless is as far as I go.Millermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:That's a thought as well. I can probably turn a small piece of rod/plate and use that in conjunction with the live center. Center drill the piece to match the live center, then flip it in the chuck and face it off nice and flat..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I've made some with a rod in them for special jobs in the past (mostly for clearance). But I've got a bunch I got from my former employer that don't have any rod on them. It's possible to make them though it does take some care and thought.   First step is to take the piece of plate and chuck it so you can face one side flat. Next if you're starting with a nice round piece you could just turn it around in the chuck (putting it flat against the face of the chuck) and center drill the other side. If it's not nice and round you could drill a small hole through the center to help locate the center drill and then put the center drill in a drill press to drill it.   Once you've got the flat face and center then you can use a ball bearing center to either push the plate against the jaws on the chuck or better against a mandrel that's been faced so that there's a undercut on the face leaving a rim say 1/4" to 1/2" wide on the outer diameter for the plate to push against.   Then just using the friction of pressing the plate like that you can carefully turn the outside and face the back of the plate.   I don't know if any of the above makes sense. I'm having some trouble getting it clearly into words. It's a fairly simple process but hard to describe.Millermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:What if you filled the hole with concrete up to with in ~3/8" of the top and inlayed ceramic tile, your brass plate or some other matching stone.  You would have to adjust the height of the concrete depending on the thickness of your filler.  Glue it in and grout the edges.Dan
Reply:DSW just so you can get an idea, this is what Bronze/Brass machines like:Someone mentioned long stringy chips but I have never experienced that.  It comes off like cast iron - dusty/flakes.Miller Diversion 180Hobart Handler 140 (Soon to be replaced with Miller 211?)Miller Spectrum 625 Extreme
Reply:Originally Posted by DanD78What if you filled the hole with concrete up to with in ~3/8" of the top and inlayed ceramic tile, your brass plate or some other matching stone.  You would have to adjust the height of the concrete depending on the thickness of your filler.  Glue it in and grout the edges.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWProblem with trying to go with an acid based stain is I have no idea what the original colors, brand or formula was when he did it. He was plying around with a ton of different things at the time, using at least two different stain companies, diluting stains, mixing stains, multiple stains overlays, ragging and sponging, fertilizer on the surface to change the look and a ton of other things. I know a portion of that floor he wasn't happy with the original results, so he went back over them again to change the look. I wasn't working for him at the time he was doing all of this. It was a lot more complicated and advanced than the basic spray on, wash off stuff we did when he 1st got into that. I do know changes in cement ratios etc will drastically alter the appearance of stains even using the exact same formula and techniques. Even he wasn't convinced he could get a "close" match as a lot of what he did, he did on the fly and never made any notes on what he did.I know his other option was a Stoneskin overlay which he'd recently taken a class in. His wife really wants an cement overlay "rug" on the section of the basement floor where the bathroom was going, which he'd planned to do. I've still got to do research on how to do that for the future. Not really looking forward to trying to do that honestly...You have absolutely no idea how hard it is to work with her and colors... I had to redo the stair treads because the light at the top of the stairs was left on so they could see what the stairs looked like when I stained them. The light left a circular spot on the center of the stairs that was extremely noticeable and faded as you went down each tread. I had to sand and restain every tread... When done she was very unhappy because she claimed the treads were all now too light in color as compared to the original color. If you looked at the steps they were almost an exact match to the sides and risers, and from downstairs, you couldn't tell a difference. From the top, they might have looked lighter, since you didn't have the same lighting on the steps as the sides... I used the EXACT same stains ( they wanted a 2 color stain process, red, then walnut over top, followed by the urethane) Exact same technique to apply the stains. The only difference was that in order to get the stairs done while they were away, I had to do 2 of the 4 coats of urethane with quart cans that dried faster because I ran out of the gallon can I'd used on everything else. My guess is some of the color difference came from the fact the quart cans had less solids in them than the gallon cans did, ( hence the reason they dry faster). I wished I'd done what I originally intended and had just refinished the top 5 treads vs the whole stairs so there would have at least been some originals to use as a reference.In the hallway where we did tile, she picked out two tiles in the whole run that were low by less than a 1/32" at more than 15ft by eye. Her husband couldn't even spot the difference, and got out the laser to prove her wrong... She really doesn't grasp the fact that many times you have no choice but to compromise somewhere. You can't have everything the way you want and still match existing conditions. Something that is "deliberately" different removes the very tedious task of trying to get a matching sample that she will approve, then trying to replicate the results exactly a 2nd time with a small batch on the final product. If she wasn't a good friend and one of my best customers, I'd just run far away on these projects. She keeps me semi busy when things are slow, and has referred a lot of others to me for work. I also rent space from her for work and storage, so she gets a lot more time on these projects than I would put out for almost any other customer.
Reply:Oh after this my next "challenge" is to figure a way to install hidden shelves along the two outside walls so she can use that space for storage. She doesn't want the doors to show, would prefer a clean flat wall ( no panels) that will match the drywall wall shown in pict 2 by the stained door, I can't anchor to the floor with anything but maybe glue ( even that is frowned upon in case she wants to remove the walls later), and I can't anchor to the block walls except maybe at the top ( basement has water issues and if you drill thru the block it will pizz out water in this area) Also the block is highly corrosive, it eats standard Tapcons in less than 6 months. All the other shelves that are wall mounted in the areas her husband dug up the outside and did water proofing, are all mounted with stainless Tapcons ( yes they make then, no they ain't cheap!). Oh and due to the moisture issues, I'm thinking I'll need to have a wide open space with no center supports and use wire shelving if I can find any small enough to prevent mold and mildew build up... I can find solutions to many of these issues, but finding one that fits them all isn't going to be easy..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWOh after this my next "challenge" is to figure a way to install hidden shelves along the two outside walls so she can use that space for storage. She doesn't want the doors to show, would prefer a clean flat wall ( no panels) that will match the drywall wall shown in pict 2 by the stained door, I can't anchor to the floor with anything but maybe glue ( even that is frowned upon in case she wants to remove the walls later), and I can't anchor to the block walls except maybe at the top ( basement has water issues and if you drill thru the block it will pizz out water in this area) Also the block is highly corrosive, it eats standard Tapcons in less than 6 months. All the other shelves that are wall mounted in the areas her husband dug up the outside and did water proofing, are all mounted with stainless Tapcons ( yes they make then, no they ain't cheap!). Oh and due to the moisture issues, I'm thinking I'll need to have a wide open space with no center supports and use wire shelving if I can find any small enough to prevent mold and mildew build up... I can find solutions to many of these issues, but finding one that fits them all isn't going to be easy.
Reply:Originally Posted by InsanerideStain all of the larger ones of the same design as the one with the patch. That way you get them all to match and the patch will dissapear.but it will look brand new.
Reply:another option---http://www.frontierlighting.com/index.jsp?path=product&part=46954&gdftrk=gdfV22514  _a_7c834_a_7c4613_a_7c46954miller thunderbolt 250vlincoln square wave tig 175 prolincoln idealarc mig sp250everlast tig 210EXTeverlast power plasma 50chicago electric (hf) 130 tig/90 arcchicago electric 90 amp flux wire3 sets oxy/acet
Reply:Link doesn't work. I'll assume it's some sort of LED floor light..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald ReaganD,Lol, I just read your post #11 (not gonna quote it due to length), and yea, sorry you have to work under "those" type of circumstances Sometimes perfection just isn't good enough And yea, one of these days we'll compare notes on decorative concrete.  Commercial slabs pay the bills (kinda), but fancy stuff is where my heart is.......along with welding of course Lincoln SA 200Esab Caddy 160Thermal Arc 201TSMiller Dialarc HFI don't like making plans for the day because then the word "premeditated" gets thrown around the courtroom....
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWLink doesn't work. I'll assume it's some sort of LED floor light.