Plumb sync and level a lathe

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Well level and square anyway. I used a laser to level my lathe or SMITHY anyway. After some 5.0 plus earthquakes, I checked and all was good. I checked after the laser (HILTI) was calibrated and still is right on. I checked yesterday and was about 1/100 of an inch out but its hard to discern between 1 and 2 1/100.I took pics yesterday but were to large to post. I did dig up an old pic that may give you an idea of what Im talking about. I dont have a pic of my story stick but I used a STARRET ruler 1/100 scale and WEBER gauge blocks and held them together with clay. It works.I know old school ers dont rely on lasers as the beam width of mine is about 50/1000 at 4 ft.If thats the case, then this method will work with a transit. The cross hairs are actually more precise than the laser but the laser works for me.The best way would be to use either an auto reflecting telescope, theodolite or autocollimator and an optical flat. My flat is from VanKuren in Massachusets but STARRET and WEBER make good carbide parallel flats .Most people dont have a theodolite in their shop so a transit or laser will work fine. Here is an old pic and if there is any interest in this, I will take new pics downsized to fit.In this pic, Im using speed squares but the story stick works best (precision). Attached Images
Reply:Level is really not as important as making sure the bed is not twisted.  Put a small level across the ways under the chuck then do the same at the tailstock end.  I was amazed how much my little Atlas Clausing would twist if the feet at the tailstock end were not adjusted correctly.  It sits with its own weight on the feet, not bolted down firmly.
Reply:Level Is not important on a lathe. If it was you would have trouble using one on a ship.  Main thing is rigidity of the bed. Any lathe bed will twist under turning pressure. If you mount the bed on a solid sub straight that can be moved around then You could operate the lathe acuratley at any angle. My Leblond is mounted to a concrete floor after it was jacked to be perfectly flat.  My Atlas is mounted on a 3 by 12 piece of chanel, 3/8ths thick.  The chanell is welded and guseted to a piece of 6 inch schedule 80 as long as the bed. That sits on an angle Iron frame that is on wheels, You can roll it any where in the shop and even if its only sitting on 3 wheels its still rigid. Mac
Reply:as others have indicated,  your process(as depicted in the picture)  isn't going to give the desired results.you want it level (or equally out of level) across the bed. this is the condition it was in when it was fitted at the factory,  so any deviation from that would give unknown results.XMT 350 MPa, w/D52-DTA 185 TSWHarris of
Reply:Yeah, you are going to want to use a machinist's level and place it across the bed. It should read the exact same as you slide it down the bed, i.e. no twist along the bed from headstock to tailstock.
Reply:Originally Posted by ZmechanicYeah, you are going to want to use a machinist's level and place it across the bed. It should read the exact same as you slide it down the bed, i.e. no twist along the bed from headstock to tailstock.
Reply:Start with a machinist's level , which is in a different league than a builder's level. Move on to the "Two collar test" mentioned in the link. What you have done is a good start, it will get you in the neighborhood. Now get into the right house with the proper level.Read this:http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/m...er/000008.html
Reply:I gotta agree with the above advise (several of them).You are now working with 1/20" resolution as you are doing it with the laser. If you could get yourself a 6' straight edge & balance it across the ways with a story pole on each end you could prolly approach the .005"/ft (30 arc sec.) that a good machinist level will give you. In truth these are generally set up with .0005"/ft (5 arc sec. or better) levels, which are pretty cashy.A Theodolite, good dumpy level or a transit(with 3 arc sec elevator level) can resolve to .005" using machine divided scales as the story pole. This gets you in the 30arc sec range if you level 2 places a foot apart, it would be tedious work. To make it worse, from the front way to the back way is prolly less than 6" meaning you should be able to resolve to .0025" to get to that 30 arc sec. that you really need for a minimum...You can buck it in by adjusting the tailstock leveling screws with a test bar or turning something like a 2-3" tube 8" or so long in the chuck. Lifting the bed on the operator side at the tailstock end will give you a smaller dia. 8" out. You can figure the rest out from there.Good luckMatt
Reply:lotechman, the story stick is moved from one whey (spelling?) to the other at tailstock and chuck. This tells if you have twist. BTW I used brass shims. I thought there would be settling from soft brass but there wasnt.Tool Maker , Im on solid concrete at one end of my garage, the other end is not so solid. Your setup sounds good and yes twist is an issue. As for using level as a reference, its easier for me to use as Im not in a ship. The auto level laser wouldnt work in a bouncy ship but neither would a spirit level. The reflecting telescope or theodolite would have to be used and referenced to a fixed datum in the ship shop or the floor. Again, the machinist spirit level wouldnt work in a ship.sjames, dont know how to answer you. I think your wrong. I use the story stick on both weys at both ends. No offenseZmechanic, I slide the story stick down both weys at both ends. Basically the same as your method of sliding the level but more accurate in my opinion.WyoRoy, xcellant suggestion. Will do.dunemetal, thanks for the link and all.  I do own two STARRET machinist levels and I believe my setup is good but will follow your instructions in the link.Matt_Maguire, thanks for that educated input but, as you stated, the theodolite gets within 30 arc seconds. They are pricy but so is the 30 arc second level your talking about. The Space_shuttle launch pad wasnt set up with fancy levels but with theodolites.   As WyoRoy suggested, cut test bars and check for taper if any.As with any measuring tools, there will always be human error. I believe that using a transit or my laser cuts down on human gross error as I can discern crosshairs or laser edge better than I can discern and correct a bubble between the lines. I shouldnt have let this cat out of the bag. Im not trying to convince anyone from tossing their level. Stick to your old methods as they were around before lasers and reflecting telescopes and they worked back then and now.I shouldnt have leaked this information and its not welding related.Thanks for the input everyone.Zap please lock this thread as theres too much controversy, its not welding related and everyone thinks Im a nut.  Attached ImagesLast edited by Insaneride; 03-02-2013 at 10:41 AM.Reason: pics
Reply:Insaneride,I wouldn't enjoin Zap to lock the thread. Information is a great asset. Just because you have your way of doing things and others have theirs' doesn't mean they are right and you are wrong in going about matters on your own equipment. Better to see what they have to offer as well as offer your own exposition as to the whys and wherefores of your methods  and let the chaff fall where it may. Remember, experience is just passing on down the road of the mistakes and successes you've made and learning from both. If you hadn't started the thread, would you have gleaned any further knowledge of the process without the participation of others here?Lincoln PrecisionTig 275Miller 251Miller DialArc 250Bridgeport millHossfeld bender & diesLogan shaperJet 14 X 40 latheSouth Bend 9" 'C'Hypertherm 900Ellis 3000 band saw21"Royersford ExcelsiorTwo shops, still too many tools.
Reply:You need a level like this oneAttachment 336781Backed my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:Originally Posted by Insaneridesjames, dont know how to answer you. I think your wrong. I use the story stick on both weys at both ends. No offense
Reply:Im sorrythat you guys never heard of a BORE SCOPE AKA reflecting telescope. BRUNSON is my fav but Nikon makes em.Im not really sorryKillDozered, nice level, whats the accuaracy?  How well and how do you use it on a bouncy ship in the middle of the Ocean Just kidding and thanks for pics, useful pics of a good level. I dont even know how to swim KD so  using a level on a bouncy ship wont help me muchMatt_Maguire, I didnt catch it at first; pricy level good to 30 arc seconds , theodolite good to 30 sec. I think you were testing me,  it s/b:  theodolite is good to 1 arc second but human error is only repeatable to within 2 arc seconds. Bout 30 times more precise than pricy level.  You are right, measure tools are made to be ten times better than what the end user gets. 1/1,000 should be made to 1/10,000 specs.Thanks again.Im not a weldor, machinist or electrician but I do know optics/lasers and so does TRW and Thompson pistons among other conglomurates . Thats probably why they use BRUNSON.Ive used this method to align lasers,IR telescopes and test equipment but even the first laser had to be aligned with a bore scope aka reflecting telescope or theodolite because no other laser xisted.Come on you guys, a theodolite is $10,000 plus, a reflecting telescope AKA bore scope is less but Im a poor boy trying to get the same precision using a transit or laser and trying to help other poor boys get the same precision. Unless you can afford a level like KIlldozer, my method is the best your gonna get. And Killdozer, I dont care how much you paid for that, It aint gonna work on a ship for me when Im see sick and scared of sharks and cant swimBesides, most of you guys already have a transit. Never mind, use your level with a magnifying glass and a scale set to measure the bubble offset And you might be more precise. (doubt)ZAP, weigh , whey, way in , (pun) you live next to VanKueren ,  VanKeuren , STARRET , WEBER and maybee a bore scope manufacturer. If you never heard of , seen/saw or used a borescope, then  Im just a basket case that cant swim so please close this useless threadHave a nice day good health and happyness to you all.Last edited by Insaneride; 03-02-2013 at 09:37 PM.
Reply:We picked up a total station for way less than $10K used. Wished I still had access to it. Never really thought about using it to level a lathe, but it makes complete sense. Lasers are only as good as the quality of the unit. I've seen plenty of "cheap" lasers that won't give you an accuracy as good as my hand held Stabila levels will. I've also worked with one or two that were so sensitive they were almost useless for "field" work. I believe my Topcon laser is rated at +/- 10 arc seconds and there are better ones out there..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Yes DSW, you are right in that the laser beam width introduces more error than cross hairs. A total station for less than $10 grand is still more than us poor boys can afford. Even more than some lathes. I tried my NIKON transit out today. Everything is DEAD ON ways and twist.  Thanks for the input.The ten grand units I was talking about were KERN I think from Swissmisland about twenty years ago.
Reply:Hmm...got a Wild transit and a Starrett level, guess one of these days I've take 'em both out and give it a try.Lincoln PrecisionTig 275Miller 251Miller DialArc 250Bridgeport millHossfeld bender & diesLogan shaperJet 14 X 40 latheSouth Bend 9" 'C'Hypertherm 900Ellis 3000 band saw21"Royersford ExcelsiorTwo shops, still too many tools.
Reply:sjames, you are correct about my pics and text being vague. I was joking about plumb and sync but level works best for me to get the ways in the same plane.  After playing with the transit, I can see how you could adjust or buck (new term for me) the lathe without being level and get desired results. Also, the transit magnifys the scale and the reticle/crosshairs give a new nth degree of precision for me.WyoRoy, to check taper, I was thinking it would be checked the same way as straightness using V blocks on a surface plate. I dont have a good indicator (old+sticky) but I could use the transit and then calculate error.  You have any suggestions?Last edited by Insaneride; 03-03-2013 at 09:41 AM.
Reply:These might help.[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLXL3cdnbpM[/ame][ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqjO4yPvhQs[/ame][ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT0zZuLO-84[/ame].No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Any suggestions??? Yeah, follow DSW's videos. If you don't have one already, get a decent quality micrometer. I use a Starrett for the 0"-1" and a Polish set purchased from Enco 7-8 years back for anything up to 6". The Polish set doesn't have the fit and finish of the Starrett (imagine that), but seem to be a fairly decent set for the cost. Not saying to go out and buy a Starrett micrometer over another brand, it's just the mic I prefer holding. If you don't have any micrometers, start off be deciding whether you prefer the friction or ratchet thimble variety and test a few different brands to see how you like the 'feel'.Last edited by WyoRoy; 03-03-2013 at 10:14 AM.Lincoln PrecisionTig 275Miller 251Miller DialArc 250Bridgeport millHossfeld bender & diesLogan shaperJet 14 X 40 latheSouth Bend 9" 'C'Hypertherm 900Ellis 3000 band saw21"Royersford ExcelsiorTwo shops, still too many tools.
Reply:I'm sure there's a joke there about a "Polish" micrometer... .No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWI'm sure there's a joke there about a "Polish" micrometer...
Reply:Yes, DSW's method works for me. I saw a calibration lab check straightness for me using precision v blocks and height gauge years ago but, I would be over complicating things all over again.I do have 3 polish mics with optically polished (mirrored) anvils.  I also have a Mitutoyo but it is without the horse shoe anvil. It was left over from custom tooling but again, I would be over complicating and have to build a fixture so, the method shown works for me.The most ingenious ideas are usually the simplest.Thanks
Reply:I thought Polish mics meant they are from HF.
Reply:Originally Posted by InsanerideI thought Polish mics meant they are from HF.
Reply:poland mics are mostly distributed by Toolmex , under the brand VIS  .   i'd say apart from a plastic spindle lock lever , they are every bit as accurate as my starrett 436 series mics .  my brown and sharpemics have a better feel in my hands , but cost 3x as much .killdozerd's level is nice , but is a mechanic's level, not a master precision  level.    @.005/foot it is1/10th the accuracy of a .0005/foot master precision level .  again, VIS is the best for the money  http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/pr...ategoryID=4511Miller S60 feederCobramatic push/pull feederMiller CP-252tsLincoln Tig250/Tig250Lincoln weldpak 100 -italianC-H 90A- italianHarris & Victor O\Afull manual & CNC machine shoptnmgcarbide,Thanks for the heads-up of VIS master precision level. Prior to your recommendation I had always believed that either the imports were Japanese and equally as expensive as the Starrett master precision level or ChiCom copies (and by copies I mean they have the same general shape and size...but not much more). Penn Tool has a good price there! Any chance Penn Tool offers discounts like Enco?Lincoln PrecisionTig 275Miller 251Miller DialArc 250Bridgeport millHossfeld bender & diesLogan shaperJet 14 X 40 latheSouth Bend 9" 'C'Hypertherm 900Ellis 3000 band saw21"Royersford ExcelsiorTwo shops, still too many tools.
Reply:How I was shown to level a lathe. Have done many. 1,  level both directions with a Starett level2,  chuck up a 2" bar around 12" long and take a light cut the length of the bar with out the tail stock. Measure for taper. Adjust the tail end leveling jacks as needed to counter the taper. Take another light cut. Measure for taper. Repeat as needed. 3,  Now put a 12" bar between centers and take a light cut. Adjust the tail stock as needed to cut with no taper. Using the tail stock to level the bed right from the start is a mistake.   Scale down the bar size for smaller machines.   All IMHO Dan
Reply:DanD78, your method sounds good and thanks for the response.I used BRONZE or maybee brass but I think its bronze for my test bar.  In 6 inches I was out 0.006 inches. Not acceptable so I turned the speed up and put on more butter and margarine for cutting fluid and took another cut to cleen things up. I was then out 0.002" in 6". If my math is correct Im only out 1min 9 seconds. Its probably the tailstock is off a bit. I also tried a steel bar and was out 0.002 " in 10". I think Im OK.If the micrometer is good enough for you guys then its good enuf for me I had to relearn how to read it and tested with 0.010 shimstock to make sure I was reading correctly.I think for a precision measurement, I would use a surface plate, matched V-blocks and a last word indicator set up on a heigth gauge but then we dont all think alike.BTW, I didnt have condensed milk for bronze so I tried butter and margarine. I think the butter worked best. Condensed would be to messy for me.  Thanks for the milk tip Zap Attached Images
Reply:Originally Posted by InsanerideMatt_Maguire, thanks for that educated input but, as you stated, the theodolite gets within 30 arc seconds. They are pricy but so is the 30 arc second level your talking about. The Space_shuttle launch pad wasnt set up with fancy levels but with theodolites.   As WyoRoy suggested, cut test bars and check for taper if any.Zap please lock this thread as theres too much controversy, its not welding related and everyone thinks Im a nut.
Reply:tnmgcarbide, thanks for the linkMatt_Maguire, thanks for clarifying the 30 seconds on the theodolite. I thought it was a typo on your part and not really a test .  I always believed the cross hairs were spider webs.I dont have a pic of using the transit but it definately is an improvement over the laser line width. I will have to check crosshair thickness compared to scale thickness. I think they were about the same. As for the math in the 0.002 " in 6". I came up with 1min 9sec. Im kinda rusty in my trig but, I remember that for angles under 3 degrees, its easy to calc the Tangent in your head but the answer will be in milliRadians. You then just convert milliradians to degrees.  0.01745 Radians per Degree.Xample  opposite / adjacent  .002 / 6 = 0.000333... Radians = 1 min 9 seconds. Please correct me if my math is wrong.Hope this helps someone someday and thanks for all the response.