Forge fuels

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dsw; very interesting build and nice pictures. what kind of coal does your forge take? is there a difference between the type of coal used in a power plant and in a forge?Edit from DSW: Doc I thought your question a good one and it might lead to more questions on the subject of fuel for forges, so I pulled it out and started it's own thread.i.u.o.e. # 15queens, ny and sunny fla
Reply:I use both anthracite (hard) and bituminous ( soft) coal. I use hard coal simply because a friend had a bunch in the basement of his old farm house and was getting rid of it when they cleaned the place for sale. It's hard to light, needs air full time to burn and is in pretty large chunks ( I'm too lazy to try and smash the 1 1/2" pieces down to 1/2" or smaller). When the last of it is gone, I won't get any more if I can find soft coal instead.Soft coal is a lot easier to light and cokes. It burns cleaner and is better for forging. Though I have close to 1000 lbs of anthracite from the farm still, I'll probably buy a ton of soft coal next month when I go to the "local" blacksmithing club meeting. The shop who is holding it is right next door to the guy they get their soft coal from, so since they are a 2 hour drive from me, I'll drag a big container up with me, and take advantage of the opportunity  to get some better coal.I have an old antique rivet forge as well. with that I have to burn soft coal. Otherwise all I'd do is pump the forge for hours on end nonstop.My guess is the power station uses really large coal ( 3" or more possibly) and it's probably hard coal. Soft coal often has a fair amount of sulfur and the EPA gets cranky about SO2 emissions now days. Most of the coal from out west and PA is usually  hard anthracite coal. Soft coal often comes from West Virginia, so plants down there may be burning soft coal from local sources and deal with the additional sulfur with the scrubbers.Coal isn't the only solid forge fuel you can use. Industrial coke is another option. That's simply soft coal they have burned all the impurities out of. It is available from blacksmithing suppliers and from what I understand is more readily available in places like the UK where use of "coal" is still semi common. Hard wood charcoal is another option. For charcoal, the fire needs to be deeper than with coal, so you need a deeper fire pot, or need to pile more fuel on the table to build up the fire. Note charcoal briquettes are a poor fuel. It doesn't burn anywhere near as well as lump charcoal. I do use briquettes to help light the anthracite I have. I build up a good size charcoal fire, then start adding the anthracite until I get it going well. Wood also works, but would be the worst of all but maybe briquettes. It's certainly possible to get small material to basic forging temps in a camp fire for example, especially if all you are doing is bends. You can probably make up a few shishkibob skewers over the fire where all you have to do is a rough point and bend a loop on the other end out of 1/4" material.There is also gas forges, usually propane. You can run natural gas, but you need either a blown forge for that or a concentrator. The college has 1 propane forge and 3 similar forges run off natural gas and a concentrator.Electric is also an option. A number of knife guys like electric induction systems where you pass the steel thru the loop and it heats the material. Great for long thin items, not so good for larger "odd" shapes.Each "fuel" has it's advantages / disadvantages. Which fits your application and conditions may vary..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:dsw; thanks for the 411 it was informative. i have an electrician friend who was studying for his dept of building's stationary engineer license and he mentioned the different sizes of coal used in powerhouses. i think there were 5. the 2 that stuck in my head were pea and pocahontas. i have no clue as to why i remember this. i believe coal fired generating stations went to pulverized coal to make it competitive with gas. till very recently the public schools in nyc burned coal and hearing it sliding down the chute was common. all gone now, too old fashioned i guess.i.u.o.e. # 15queens, ny and sunny fla
Reply:I think some of the soft coal from far southwest VA and adjoining areas in W VA is "metallurgical grade".  I think a good bit is exported via the port in Norfolk."USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA  Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:I have a friend who works at a coal fired power plant and the coal they use is hard coal, they smash it up and send it in the furnace via hi pressure streams. This is the coal I'm using at the moment because it's free to me!But it is a pain to get lit, takes about 20 min before you can stop babysitting it and get to work. It dose have a lot of impurity so your tending the fire and pulling clinker about every 15-20 min. That doesn't bother me too much.. Plus it will burn ridiculously hot if you let it which in turn burns up a lot of fuel. It's not bad fuel if you keep a watchful eye on it when working. Next time I make it to the pioneer settlement in barbersville I'm going to pick up some soft coal.. I may also do some experimenting with wood lump charcoal.Real welders know how to penetrate!(Equipment)Whatever can be used to beat my opponent into submission!
Reply:Originally Posted by docwelder. till very recently the public schools in nyc burned coal and hearing it sliding down the chute was common. all gone now, too old fashioned i guess.
Reply:Some of what looks and seems like coal is headed towards being shale.  I picked up some outside an abandoned coal mine near Blacksburg, VA one time.  Threw it in a stove with some wood and it never seemed to burn.  Probably why the mine shut down.  The filler used for iron castings used to be made with such stuff.  They would grind it to a powder and mix it with other stuff to patch imperfections and holes.  Used it a bit like Bondo.  "Keystone filler" was one popular name, from an area in Pennsylvania.  Similar stuff is used in tires and other products."USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA  Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:I use the bituminous in my forge. I've tried the hard coal, as that was what I found first. it works, and with my electric blower on the forge it's not hard to keep lit, but the bituminous is far superior.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:Hey Thor. If you get a chance, you might add links to your forge thread and any other blacksmithing related threads to the new Blacksmithing sticky.http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...ng-and-forgingI know you've done a few and some of the members have suggested they'd like an easy way to locate blacksmithing related posts..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I tried lighting my forge this evening by first starting a charcoal fire in the pot..... What a difference it made, it only took about 10 minutes to get it fired up and at operating heat and I didn't have to babysit the forge and move the fire around for 20 min! I seemed to have less clinker and ash in the fire pot for the first 2 pots of fuel also.Real welders know how to penetrate!(Equipment)Whatever can be used to beat my opponent into submission!
Reply:Anthracite also likes to have more fuel in the fire than bituminous coal. I can forge with a very small fire with soft coal, but I really need to keep a good sized fire maintained with hard coal or it takes forever to rebuild the fire when I add more fuel later.Soft coal also works well to get hard coal going, but usually if you have soft coal, most don't bother with hard coal..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:The coal i bought is a mix of both but i still find it hard to get the fire going and i'm not patient...My old forge was propane and i'm used to getting it hot NOW...O/A Big rosebudSo i lit it with a rosebud heated all the pieces red hot and left them to stay hot while working one at a time It didn't seem to stay hot and didn't want to stay lit...don't know if it's me or it ...never used a coal forge beforeBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:Try what Dan did and build yourself a good size charcoal fire 1st. I try and go with a pile of charcoal at least the size of a softball if not a bit bigger. A good liberal dose of lighter fluid and it lights right up. After a few minutes to get things lit, I'll put the blower on low and start adding a bit of coal, adding more and more as the charcoal turns white and gets going well, and increasing the air as things heat up. The charcoal does toss some fliers and ash under heavy air, but usually by that time I've got  a decent size pile of coal on and started. I also found my original blower to be borderline with hard coal. A bigger blower solved that.I used to use rolled cardboard soaked in oil that a friend uses to start fires. It's a bit more reliable than newspaper mushrooms with soft coal as it burns longer. The corrugations in the cardboard allow air to pass thru the roll and help with getting coal on top lit well. My experience with hard coal using this method was mixed. I think the larger 1 1/2" size of many of the pieces was simply too big to get lit easily. Smaller 1/2" and down stuff seemed to lite off better that way. I'm lazy and charcoal is a lot simpler, even if I have to buy a few bags to get things going vs free cardboard and a bit of waste oil or diesel..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Out West we dont have coal in the ground like back East. A group of Italians called Carbonaries made coal to melt gold some 100+ years ago. Ive been to a place called Eureka,NV that has remains of where they made coal. I thought they just started a fire but theres a little more to it. Most trees out there are either Pine or Juniper.  I would think a hard wood would be better than Pine for coal but thats what they had.  Heres a link for making your own coal . http://www.wikihow.com/Make-Charcoal
Reply:Originally Posted by DSW... The congregations in the cardboard...
Reply:Clicked on the wrong one with spell check. Oops...There I fixed it... Nice to be able to go back and edit posts. .No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Although most of it is usually only available in the tropics, when I was in Ghana, W. Africa several years ago, the local smiths/welders used whole red palm nuts in their forges.  Seemed to work well and the palm nuts burned very consistently due to their size and oil content.  A little air to it and the metal would go white hot.  Maybe not ideal, but if you have a palm tree...Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:a lot of hobby smiths make their own charcoal using retorts and any type of wood they can find. If Coal is hard to find in your local area you could always build a retort so that you can have lump charcoal. this of course is assuming large amounts of wood are accessible.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:Some will even burn dried corn in a forge, though I never have. From what I understand there are a number of other unconventional forge fuels that some use..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Hey Doc,  I see your in NYC.  I been there once and don't know if Coal is readily available there.  But I do know if you want to get your hands on some there a few places in North Jersey that sell it.  Mostly Anthracite.  Place in Sparta NJ does.  If you want I can get the company info...We burn Anthracite to heat the house.  I find getting it right off the Breaker at the Jeddo mine is cheaper than buying from a supplier.  $200 a ton from the supplier I use, we use Pea and Nut coal.  I know more about the home heating side of it.  We smelt lead to make bullets and I've been wanting to take our home made smelter from Propane/Charcoal to pure Anthracite.  Thanks for the ideas guys!  Friends Of Coal member for years,  I proudly support it.  Coal keeps the lights on.Some Blue , Some Red & Some GreyProverbs 16:2-3.2 "All a person’s ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the Lord. 3 Commit to the Lord whatever you do, and he will establish your plans."
Reply:as the european forests were cut down for smiths making arrowheads and axes, coal became  more attractive..deeper and dseeper they dug to keep making arrowheads and axes..i think the steam engine was originally developed to power pumps that kept the coal mines from flooding
Reply:Like DieselDon16, I know more about coal from the home heating side of it. Used to heat the house with anthracite bought bagged here in upstate NY. While I've never burned bituminous, I do know that it burns more like wood, needs more secondary air provided above the fire, and a deeper bed of coals is not needed. Anthracite, on the other hand, needs primary air from underneath the fire, and a deeper bed of coals. Bituminous burning stoves are usually set up like a wood stove, whereas anthracite stoves have a tall, narrow fire box to accomodate a deep bed of coals. Just some thoughts. I hope to get working on building a small forge here this summer, most likely coal.
Reply:Look for farrier suppliers.  I was able to buy coal from them by the 5 gallon pail.
Reply:Originally Posted by docwelder the different sizes of coal used in powerhouses. i think there were 5. the 2 that stuck in my head were pea and pocahontas. i have no clue as to why i remember this. i believe coal fired generating stations went to pulverized coal to make it competitive with gas. till very recently the public schools in nyc burned coal and hearing it sliding down the chute was common. all gone now, too old fashioned i guess.
Reply:What DSW said about the types of coal is incorrect. Soft Coal is the blacksmith choice, Pocahontas vein has a lower sulfur content in it, hence works better in a forge. Coking your coal is necessary in order to get up to welding temperatures. Hard coal is used for home heating and comes from a small area in Pennsylvania. All coal burnt in the Power plants is actually soft coal contrary to what the guy from Florida stated. Soft Coal is usually Strip mined verses Hard coal which is tunnel mined. Scrubbers and SO2 emission credits are what keeps the fires burning!There is a very good website on Coal for home heating and its other uses http://nepacrossroads.com/htmlBTWCoal from out west is very soft and low grade used primarily for power generation.what are you planning to do with your forge? that dictates what type of fuel you'll want to use. Propane, more expensive overall but heats up extremely fast. So if you only have short periods of time to work with the forge propane is likely your better option, even if its typically more expensive. Will reach forging heat for non-stainless damascus, can weld damascus steel if its a blown burner, venturi burner will weld but forge needs to be well insulated.Coal, I've used limited amounts of it others have mentioned the different types. Coal will get hotter and typically is cheaper to use if you have a local supplier of it vs propane. takes longer to heat up to use but costs less in the long run. It will need a vent hood due to smoke and fumes.wood and as mentioned nuts can work as well, they have a harder time forge welding due to lower heat compared to coal but they will forge anything and can forge weld but takes time. Coal and wood need a blower for it to work, hand cranks work well but you'll need to learn how to manage that. A hand crank gives you a bit more precise control over the temp when you get used to them. A fan can work on a coal forge as well, it needs to be a strong fan as it must blow air through the coal to heat it up so squirrel cage fans don't do well in this application, where as they do well with propane.Lincoln ac tombstoneeverlast powerarc 300ST
Reply:Sorry for the confusion about the power plant fuel type I stated earlier in this post, I was conveying information given to me by a friend who worked at a nuclear power plant that also ran coal burning power systems. There could have been a mis communication. None the less... I have learned that the type of hard fuel used (coal/wood/charcoal.etc) is not as important as the forge it's used in. I have run hard coal, soft coal, wood, and both lump and briquette charcoal in my forge! All have preformed well with some modification to the fire pot and air volume. When I built my forge I made it as versitile as I could, I can change my fire pot depth from 2" to 6" by changing plates in the pot. I can also adjust my air from almost nothing all the way to category 5 hurricane speeds.The second most important thing is fuel size and quantity. With clean coal I can run my 3" depth plate and  only run the fan when there is material in the heat, sometimes I get 2-3 heats before I need air flow as long as I use pea size coal. For larger coal and lump charcoal I use the 4" plate to achive the same heat and the 6" plate for wood chunks and briquettes.The simple math is.... More surface area of the fuel = more heat and a cleaner burn. So use the smallest sized fuel your forge will run.I have used all the mentioned fuels for multiple forgings with respectable results. I do prefer good coal over all others for the fact it heats quickly and is very low maintenance compared to "dirty" coal ( pulling klinker) and wood or charcoal (burns very quick) but if you don't have good coal available you can use any of the fuels I mentioned and I'm sure many more I have not used with good results as long as the equipment is designed to run that fuel, people have been using whatever they could get to burn for thousands of years!On a side note I wouldn't suggest using wood chunks if you have access to lump charcoal or briquettes. I was able to achieve forging temps with the raw wood chunks fairly easily by putting small log halves on the sides of my fire pot and building sort of a little log kiln but it eats fuel very very fast, that means you spend about half your day feeding the fire!Wood lump charcoal works very well if you break it into smaller pieces but it also burns quite a bit of fuel to keep it hot... But it has a hidden advantage!... You can idle the forge as long as you want without loosing the fire and you can cook a steak on it when your ready for some grub!Hopefully this helps clear some of the "can and can't use" fuels for anyone looking to forge but doesn't have access to clean coal.... There are many options available!Last edited by Dantheharleyman99; 03-17-2015 at 11:14 PM.Real welders know how to penetrate!(Equipment)Whatever can be used to beat my opponent into submission!
Reply:Ok y'all I have questions. I built my forge pot similar to DSW's. I bought a small bit of various sized coal from Vinita Ok. It worked perfect. The coal is random sized and produces some clinkers. I then bought what was called stoker coal. It was smaller and more even in size. It lights very easy. It all turns to ash and falls to the bottom and plugs off air flow. I can't get anything hot without poking it deep  and verticle and only get the end hot. When the forge is very low on coal and the air can blast through it makes a very hot fire. but it will not reach high enough to heat 3/8' rebar. All the coal around the edges turns white and turns to ash and the ash falls to the bottom. You have to constantly dig down deep and stirr the fire to get any heat. This coal is a dull black/gray in color and comes from Wyoming. I'm just curious what it is? I got my hopes up because it's cheap and easy to get. They use it to heat chicken houses and green houses. One more thing. I light the Vinita coal with news paper and  very little air.
Reply:Post up some picts of your fire grate in your forge thread. In my forge I have a clinker breaker, and by twisting it, I can drop the ash etc down into the ash collector down below where the air intake comes in. In my small hand pumped forge with a grate with holes, I have to manipulate the fire manually to get the ash to drop down into the ash collector. It takes a bit to get the process down and you have to do a bit more in constant maintenance of the fire.  I take my fire rake and slide it back and forth to knock the ash down into the holes and keep the airway clear. You might also find bigger holes in the grate helps. The "holes" on the side of my clinker breaker are big enough I can easily get my finger in them, and they are about 3" long. That's a lot more room to "drop" things than a grate with a few 1/4" holes in it. Bigger or more  holes may help with your issue.I bet if you go over to IforgeIron and ask those guys, I bet some one there from out your way can tell you  a bit more about what your coal actually is. There's a lot of very experienced smiths there who are willing to help as long as you make an attempt to search yourself for info 1st..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Wyoming Coal is junk! It isn't as hard or old as Pennsylvania Coal or even West Virginia Coal. Do a GOOGLE SEARCH and you will find that the coal from Wyoming is almost a Lignite meaning it doesn't have the Carbon content as Eastern Coal. This is why it doesn't make heat and burns up rather quickly.
Reply:Thanks y'all. My grate is 3/8" thick. It has one slot in the middle that's 3/8" wide by 3" long and it has a 1/2" hole on either side of the slot. Plenty of the ash gets through the holes. I dump the ash gate every few minutes and get a big pile of ash and red hot coals. With the Oklahoma coal I get maybe a small handfull of clinker/ash after a few hrs of use. I have the forge cleaned out until I get better coal. I'll get a pic of the grate. I will join I forge iron. I got up at 3 am this morning and started reading on there. Again thanks for the help guys. I'm a beginner with very little knowledge on the subject. I hope this is something I can keep at for a long time.There are some things I'd like to learn to make and use in my work but right now I'm just trying things for the practice and learning some of the processes. I want to take classes but so far they haven't worked with my work schedule. We have a Blacksmith group near here that I plan to join in hopes of some learning. One of the members is a member of this forum and has been a big help. My reason for asking about the coal is so that I don't make the same mistake again.
Reply:Originally Posted by AR. HillbillyOk y'all I have questions. I built my forge pot similar to DSW's. I bought a small bit of various sized coal from Vinita Ok. It worked perfect. The coal is random sized and produces some clinkers. I then bought what was called stoker coal. It was smaller and more even in size. It lights very easy. It all turns to ash and falls to the bottom and plugs off air flow. I can't get anything hot without poking it deep  and verticle and only get the end hot. When the forge is very low on coal and the air can blast through it makes a very hot fire. but it will not reach high enough to heat 3/8' rebar. All the coal around the edges turns white and turns to ash and the ash falls to the bottom. You have to constantly dig down deep and stirr the fire to get any heat. This coal is a dull black/gray in color and comes from Wyoming. I'm just curious what it is? I got my hopes up because it's cheap and easy to get. They use it to heat chicken houses and green houses. One more thing. I light the Vinita coal with news paper and  very little air.
Reply:AR, I think you were posting while I was rambling on.....it may be that your coal size is small compared to your tuyere slot and you are losing some coal (red hot coals) along with the ash down the ash dump.  At least you are getting rid of the ash buildup, it seems.  If you have a lot of fines in your coal, it can either (1) be lost down your ash dump or (2) clog up smaller openings in your tuyere, but it seems you have a large enough opening, much like the club forge I mentioned above.If you do have a lot of fines, you can sift them out with something like a 1/2" or 1/4" screen then put them in a spot on your forge table, wet them down (don't get water on your firepot!!), then pile them on the side of your fire and let the wet mass form a nice coke lump.  Some folks say they wet their fines and make "coal balls" but mine never stick together, just fall apart.
Reply:AR, got your PM, everything is clear now.  Thanks.