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Hi all,A friend came by to see if I might be able to remove a broken stud that is just below the surface on a straight six Jeep engine. I tried to weld a nut on it but it broke off twice as I think the stud is under tension.Does anyone know if a metal disintegration service would be a solution to that problem and if so, how do I locate one? I am located in Phoenix but I didn't see any such services offered here only out of state companies that travel on site to do their magic.Any other thoughts how to get it out? To complicate it more, my friend broke an easy out inside the stud!!!Thanks,Tony
Reply:First, I assume it is a rocker arm stud, make sure the stud is screw in, not press in. If it is screw in just keep welding the nut on, use a nut bigger than the stud size. Weld it hot. I have never had that method fail in cast iron, and have removed a bunch of broken screws and easy outs. The other method I use for getting out broken taps, et al, it to finish breaking them with a punch and remove the small pieces. If you want some help with the welding method PM me and I'll give yo my number
Reply:Tony, you could research this technique. Heat up the broken stud with an oxy acet cutting torch to red. Then tap the oxygen cutting lever. It should blow it out and leave the treads.in the engine. I have seen it many times, but never did it myself. Perhaps there is a youtube video of it. I would only trust it to someone the really knew gas torch cutting.In the early days I heated the stud red with my tig and used 308 to build up an knob to visegrip it out. Nowadays I just send it to the burr shop for and electric discharge burnout.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Drill a hole in a piece of 1/8 plate, cut it down to a 1in square, weld it to the stud, then weld a nut on top, and try that. Go easy and watch your pressure on the ratchet. Try a foward teverse technique.I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:Hi all,thanks for the ideas. The stud in question is on the intake manifold and is below the surface. I used a mig gun to build up the stud to past the surface and then welded a nut on it. It broke, twice.I have tried the torch method on other such jobs but the result runs the risk of damaging the threads as cast iron while not subject to burn like iron, will melt. However this may be solved by drilling the hole out again and chasing the threads with a bottoming tap. I haven't tried that on this project yet.I was doing this with the manifold in place as it was a whole other layer of work to take it off and I was trying to avoid the extra work under the Arizona sun in the afternoon when it burns the hottest. If I take the manifold off, build up the stud as described by shovelon and then weld the 1/8" plate on it and then a nut on top of that. That one sounds like a plan. Part of the problem is that it is difficult to work on it in place.What is an "electric burnout" mentioned by shovelon??? That sounds appealing as well.Thanks,Tony
Reply:therrera - Easy-outs only work if the stud isn't stuck, and welding a nut barely works on larger diameter bolts, again that aren't stuck. There are multiple [3 to 6] preparations necessary before you get to the easy-out, they must be done in order, foremost to insure success, but also not toexclude the next level of desperation. The easy-out is just a handle on a lose stud, not a bolt head. You terminated youroptions from the beginning. The process you are looking for is EDM - Electro Discharge Machining; the type you are looking for most often are found in general machine shop. Opus
Reply:Therrera, you have two choices: Heat or a carbide cutter.
Reply:Originally Posted by therreraHi all,What is an "electric burnout" mentioned by shovelon??? That sounds appealing as well.Thanks,Tony
Reply:HI again,When posing a carbide cutter solution, are you referring to a die grinder with a carbide bit to dig into the stud? Will this cut through the easy out? I carry these tools on my service truck as I use them regularly when performing repairs on aluminum parts (engine blocks, tranny cases, etc.).They come in real handy to burr through a contaminated weld, soot, dirt, etc. in hard to reach areas. I carry both 1/8" and 1/4" carbide bits and use a dremel or rotozip tool. What attachment numbers are those for? What tool?So the idea is to grind out a hole into the stud (and broken easy out) so I can put in a larger one? Or is the idea to grind out as much of the stud and drill the rest of it out and run a tap through it?With the manifold off I can weld a fresh nut on the stud, then you recommend I apply heat to the head once the stud cools off and attempt to wrench it out?I have done many extractions on broken studs including burning them out with a torch. I have gotten a little more timid about using the torch for fear of ruining the threads. This one is in real tight though so that's why I was thinking of searching for a mobile electric burn out method as it will save a lot of labor taking the head off and to a machine shop.What do you think?Thanks,Tony
Reply:Leaning over a fender with a die grinder using a small burr or carbide drill seems like a good way to get a piece of carbide stuck deep somewhere. Then you're really stuck,In situ removal of broken capscrews & studs can be one of the most frustrating things a person can do. If you look at denreps pics, everything is out in the open where you have a better chance at things.If you remove the manifold (at least) and there is some stud left proud of the head then heating or welding plus using ATF or soluble oil & water or PEE to cool the end... mixed with lots of patience & feel they come out. I've never really figured out which part of the recipe is most important other than patience.IF this is an old timey block that may have as many as four threads in an interference fit at the bottom of the hole your going to be in a battle you will never forget. I've removed many from ductile tamper parts through the years with the mig up to surface and weld a washer & nut and some have been very expensive.Jerry's in the link above is likely using an Elecro-arc tap disintegrator, these are not really portable for auto use but the vibrating electrode head can be turned sideways for shop use. They use a di-electric oil to flush and cool while burning things out. There are portable tap busters out there but the are low power & pretty slow and can be frustrating too.An EDM die shop can burn the stud out & possibly re-thread larger in the same sinking operation, but those EDM machines are definitely not portable.Good LuckMatt
Reply:Xtractalloy electrode works wonders, it is designed for removing broken bolts, if you can not find any, use 308 to weld the nut on the stud, let it cool and use an impact to back it out, an impact puts less of a bending load than a wrench or ratchet and socket. If you are using ER70XX wire, it will break nearly every time, stainless will flex alot before it breaks.6 Miller Big Blue 600 Air Paks2 Miller 400D6 Lincoln LN-25's4 Miller Xtreme 12VS2 Miller Dimension 812 4 Climax BW-3000Z bore welders Hypertherm 65 and 85Bug-O Track BugPair of Welpers
Reply:I may be wrong but if that is one of those spiral easy outs your going to have to get it out first because all they do is expand the bolt and wedge it tighter in the hole.Don't know of any other suggestions as I think they have all been mentioned.I have removed lots of twisted off bolts for guys with different versions of the nut welded on trick and never had it fail yet. Some times it takes several tries.Good luck.Trailblazer 302Hobart Stickmate AC/DCLincoln SP 135 TSmith torchSpoolmatic 30A
Reply:Mig will only work on studs that are loose. If it takes any torque to remove the stud then you'll have to stick or tig weld. Any form of stainless filler is vastly better at this as well. I usually use 3/32 308 or 309 rods to at least butter the bolt with. Stainless rods also have the benefit of the heavy flux which will allow build of even a deeply buried stud without sticking to the side. In fact it's so difficult to get a stainless rod to stick to the side that I usually use 6011 to weld the nut on. Otherwise you'll be all the way to the top of nut before you can get it to weld. It may take a number of tries to get the stud out. I've done it as many as a dozen times before winning. But if you keep at it and don't put to much torque on it while removing it will nearly always work in the end. I usually use either a small weak impact or a crescent to gently rock the stud back and forth till it breaks free. Don't just try to screw it out rather just try to make it move. Once you get it moving you've won though it may take some time. Patients is the key here.Last edited by irish fixit; 06-27-2012 at 08:36 AM.Millermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:I use a washer welded on, then a nut welded to that, instead of a 1/8" steel plate.
Reply:EDM will work for sure. Call around to your local machine shops. You might find that the service is not advertised. A one man shop in my area has one of the machines. Really works cool.
Reply:For the last broken screw I removed for a friend, I used a reverse twist drill in a hand held drill. My drill press doesnt work in reverse. Before that, I borrowed a plasma torch and removed a broken easyout for the same friend. It burned out/blew out similar to the way someone suggested the OA torch and didnt hurt the threads. Ive heard of making a drill from an old tap. Grind the carbide tip down and use it to drill out the bolt. I havnt used this method but it is supposed to work better than an EDM.
Reply:Originally Posted by weldermikeDrill a hole in a piece of 1/8 plate, cut it down to a 1in square, weld it to the stud, then weld a nut on top, and try that. Go easy and watch your pressure on the ratchet. Try a foward teverse technique.
Reply:Originally Posted by weldermikeDrill a hole in a piece of 1/8 plate, cut it down to a 1in square, weld it to the stud, then weld a nut on top, and try that. Go easy and watch your pressure on the ratchet. Try a foward teverse technique.
Reply:Pull the head. It's not that hard on the 4.0/4.2. It will make this easier. A new head gasket is cheap. Putting the head back on is easy. No adjustment of the rack."Liberalism is a mental disorder" Dr. Savage
Reply:Originally Posted by OPUS FERROtherrera - Easy-outs only work if the stud isn't stuck, and welding a nut barely works on larger diameter bolts, again that aren't stuck. There are multiple [3 to 6] preparations necessary before you get to the easy-out, they must be done in order, foremost to insure success, but also not toexclude the next level of desperation. The easy-out is just a handle on a lose stud, not a bolt head. You terminated youroptions from the beginning. The process you are looking for is EDM - Electro Discharge Machining; the type you are looking for most often are found in general machine shop. Opus
Reply:Hi all,my friend put his Jeep back together and drove off. We will schedule another round to get the stud out and this time he will pull the manifold off so I can work unimpeded. I will try the stainless approach. I have some Eutectic "tigtectic" 680 tig rod which is for dissimilar metals, stainless or carbon based. I'll use that stuff to build it up and then weld a washer and nut to it.Thanks,Tony
Reply:Here's how you remove stuck broken bolts....Get a length of 1/8" or 3/16" flat bar that an inch or two across, drill a hole the size of the stud.TIG(!) weld the hole to the bolt using filler, make sure there no gap (flatbar is flat against the surface the bolt is in).Whack the new weld with a hammer a few times to help jar the bolt loose.Then gently tap the length of flatbar back and forth slowly to work it loose while using PB baster for penetrating lube.Last edited by MikeGyver; 06-28-2012 at 03:47 AM.Welding/Fab Pics: www.UtahWeld.com
Reply:HelloI think before you go to any of the welding/heat methods, try a left hand drill. Drill out the center of the bolt. Start with a small size, and work your way up to a drill size just under the thread pitch. This collapses the wall tension. It should twist right out. If not: Tap the side of the wall with a pin drift, or a small chisel. Then if needed you will be able to use an easy-out. I like the Grabit drill-out. You will also be able to use a tap at this point. If the threads are damaged, I like the Time-Sert. Good luck!http://www.aldn.com/Pages/grabitSS.phphttp://www.timesert.com/Powcon 200SMPowcon 300STVictor Journeyman O/A & CartApex Disc SanderCraftsman Belt/Disc Combo SanderWayne Air Compressor3 Craftsman Drill PressesEmerson Horizontal BandsawPorter-Cable Porta-Band7 Angle Grinders4 Bench Grinders
Reply:I work on gas and steam turbines that are hooked to generators in power plants. That said, I drill out broken bolts daily when on a job. Just be careful, you center punch dead center to start. If you dont have decent drill bits, use a dremel with a good burr bit. I find the barrel shaped with a rounded tip work the best. Do not use cheap burr bits, waste of money and time. Just be careful you dont "wipe" the threads. Then blow out excess burrs with air nozzle and use a good tap to clean out threads. Time consuming, but safe, and if careful has great results. Just my opinion, there are far more experienced millwrights on here than me! Good luck.1973 sa200Lincoln crackerboxMiller 211 migJunk
Reply:If you do use the left hand drill bit , reverse twist drill bit or even the dremmel bit: remember to put your drill motor in REVERSE. It works better that wayShame it has an easy out broke off in the bolt.... Tig weld a nut to the bolt then as soon as you are done welding dump oil on it, then unscrew it. This works with out fail.Tim Beeker.
Reply:Just another vote for welding a nut to it. This is my go-to method every time. As said by others, you don't always get it with the first nut you weld on. Getting the bolt to move is key, even if it is just the slightest bit of movement. Soak it with pb blaster and work it back and forth until it will turn easy enough to turn it out without breaking. Tap it with a hammer, also sometimes it helps to let it sit for a long time after welding. It is amazing how much more force it takes to break stainless. All this has been said above, just wanted to echo with my experience.Last edited by imc188222; 07-05-2012 at 07:58 AM.Miller millermatic 251Miller aircrafter 330st, wp201961 Lincoln SA200Ellis 1600 bandsawLogan 820 latheSouth Bend 13"Bridgeport M Head
Reply:Originally Posted by ExpatWelderXtractalloy electrode works wonders, it is designed for removing broken bolts, if you can not find any, use 308 to weld the nut on the stud, let it cool and use an impact to back it out, an impact puts less of a bending load than a wrench or ratchet and socket. If you are using ER70XX wire, it will break nearly every time, stainless will flex alot before it breaks.
Reply:I am one of the most inexperienced Tig welders out there. I do not post my welds for a reason. You get one guess. I have a 95 Mercury Villager that had almost all the exhaust studs broken off. Frot did not leak but back was very loud. Pulled engine removed heads, 14 studs in head and in manifold were removed with the TIG a bolt method. Some required 3 or 4 tries. 3 more bolts were in various covers on the engine. Total of 17. I got them all out. If I can do it You can too.
Reply:Originally Posted by Xtreme FabricationThat Xtractolly stuff is called "The problem solver" I got some on the truck. Its saved my *** a couple of times.
Reply:Hell, I do the "weld a nut on" technique stick welding. In fact, in the last 2 weeks I've removed ALL 20 lug nuts from my car by doing so (yes, welding a nut to the lug nut... long story), a seized and snapped off intake manifold bolt on an onan b48m, and a broken cylinder head bolt from a 5 hp tecumseh.It doesn't have to be pretty... it's just gotta stick. With seized bolts, I soak em down good in penetrating oil for as long as I can manage, then hit em with an impact wrench dialed down as low as it will go to start cracking the rust loose.You didn't build that.'85 Miller AEAD-200LE
Reply:I weld a nut on it, but I do it a little different than most suggestions. lets say you have a 3/8" stud broken in the hole, below flush. I weld a much bigger nut on it, like 5/8 or 3/4". I aim the mig to the center, the heat stays there until it starts building up on the inside of the nut. I continue until it looks like a plug weld. The weld stays in the center and does not fuse to the parent material. It might break off 2 or 3 times, but remember, each time you do it, the stud shrinks a little, eventually it will come off. I have rarely found a bolt that dosen't come out this way.
Reply:I'm going to keep the weld 2 inch bar and tap method in my little bag of tricks to try!Thanks for the Idea!
Reply:Originally Posted by MikeGyverHere's how you remove stuck broken bolts....Get a length of 1/8" or 3/16" flat bar that an inch or two across, drill a hole the size of the stud.TIG(!) weld the hole to the bolt using filler, make sure there no gap (flatbar is flat against the surface the bolt is in).Whack the new weld with a hammer a few times to help jar the bolt loose.Then gently tap the length of flatbar back and forth slowly to work it loose while using PB baster for penetrating lube.
Reply:Hi all and thanks for the tips and tricks. I have used the weld on nut method for many years without failure until I ran into this exhaust manifold I wrote about. I see now that I have to just keep at it and be persistent when they break. I was using a mig gun to weld the nut down with and the right way seems to favor a stick weld depositing a harder metal.Thanks for sharing your experiences and knowledge,Tony
Reply:Did this yesterday!Half inch set screw in antique cast iron broken off flush, used 3/32 308, welded screw to washer, welded bolt to glob.Wrenched off immediately, stuck a little at first, then turned right out! Attached Images
Reply:Post is a little old, but here is my go-to method.I weld a washer to the stud firstThen weld the nut to the washerThen weld inside the nut to the topI put a flow control (from a paint gun) on my impact gun and turn up the pressure a little at a time till it's tapping gently.Have never needed more than two tries this way.Did 4 head bolts on my SA200 project last summer this way. Dave J.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:If all else fails you must take the head off and get the stud spark eroded, simple,DD.
Reply:Ford V10 motor are notorious for broken exhaust studs. One person (a girl mind you) just under took the job of removing all the broken studs on both sides of her V10 not long ago. After going threw all the same ordeal as I see here she ended up drilling the lest few very suborn studs with diamond bits in the dremmel tool. Once she got threw the stud to the thread on one side it came right out. This was after welding on it numerous times, broken easy out, the whole deal.If a girl can do it.....
Reply:Before all that, use PB Blaster on the stud in question. May make removing a little easier.
Reply:Originally Posted by weldermikeDrill a hole in a piece of 1/8 plate, cut it down to a 1in square, weld it to the stud, then weld a nut on top, and try that. Go easy and watch your pressure on the ratchet. Try a foward teverse technique.
Reply:When the weld is hot hit it with pb or atf/acetone. It will suck it in and the steam / fast shrinking helps break the corrosion loose. May have to do it a few times, but I've done it both ways and I feel it helps quite a bit!Miller: 200dx, Bobcat 225, Passport, Powermax 45, Milwaukee: Dry Saw, MagDrill, grinders
Reply:Centre drill the broken stud close to its full depth if possible, then run a weld along one side of the drilled hole, this is not easy on studs under 1/2", 7/16" is the smallest that I have tried this on.Then weld on a washer or drilled piece of plate and proceed as described in previous posts. I prefer the drilled plate to a washer. I have 14 gauge (2 mm) rods that I keep especially for the removal of smaller studs.
Reply:Originally Posted by JohnRWhen the weld is hot hit it with pb or atf/acetone. It will suck it in and the steam / fast shrinking helps break the corrosion loose. May have to do it a few times, but I've done it both ways and I feel it helps quite a bit! |
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发表于 2021-8-31 22:04:27