Interesting info on lock washers

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..................................................  ......................https://www.boltscience.com/pages/he...ingwashers.htmMiller Challenger 172Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC 225/150Miller Maxstar 150 STLVictor 100CVictor JourneymanOxweld OAHarris O/ASmith O/A little torchNo, that's not my car.
Reply:It's a valid test I guess.  Depends on whether the nuts were actually torqued to any kind of real world value.BUT..........................  Lock washers deform so badly, that any real torque specification is a joke.  They start to move out from under the nut when torqued to required torque specs.You'll notice that any nuts used for critical applications......cylinder heads, spring hangers, etc.....................are either on top of a solid washer, or the washer is built into the nut itself as a one piece fastener.
Reply:Yes I have a bunch of those in 1/4-20 size, I needed 4 serrated ones and I had to buy 100 , Flange Nuts they are called. They make serrated and smooth both. There's also the ones with slightly domed washers that are fastened to the nuts but spin, I believe when you torque them down the pressure of the dome keeps tension against them, I've seen them on lug nuts. I've grown partial to Nylocks on stuff I don't want to fall apart.Miller Challenger 172Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC 225/150Miller Maxstar 150 STLVictor 100CVictor JourneymanOxweld OAHarris O/ASmith O/A little torchNo, that's not my car.
Reply:I'm kind of partial to Nylocks for certain projects also. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk:
Reply:Great, and interesting information.Nylocks and/or locktite myself.I never trusted split washers but will use them in kits that come with them.
Reply:Personally, I've never had much use for split lockwashers except for "soft" joints using gaskets, etc. the spring tension seems to help hold the clamp load. In a "hard" joint even a properly torqued plain nut with hardened washers is better. Flange nuts and bolts are the stuff for truck frames, beaten down good and tight they will never loosen.  In the 80's I worked for a company that did plenty of heavy equipment work, our shop manager was a guy with a degree and zero real time experience. He caught 3 of us installing cutting edges on a D9 dozer blade and flipped out because we weren't using split locks. I personally grabbed his azz by the lapel and dragged him to the front office to see the owner, "He goes or I go" was the discussion... I explained the problem we were having in an hour long powwow, The boss offered to let the guy try laying on his back torching out junk blade frogs but he wasn't having any of that, us guys with experience were the problem according to Mr. Degree. The real suck part was I had to do his job starting the next day.
Reply:Originally Posted by SlowBluesGreat, and interesting information.Nylocks and/or locktite myself.I never trusted split washers but will use them in kits that come with them.
Reply:They are really great in low torque applications.  the only downside is the speed.  If you have a long bolt or very fine thread it takes a long time, and a wrench the entire time, to get them off.  I always have at least a A pack of 1/4 in and 10 mm nylocks.  I like to keep a few 1/4", 5/16", 8mm, and 10mm in the toolboxes.
Reply:Nylock nuts are decent for many applications but the real deal is either top lock or the locknuts with the small square staked section. In my climate it doesn't take long for nature's loctite to take over rendering just about any fastener unremovable without heat or cutting
Reply:In aerospace, at least where I worked, every threaded fastener had to have either a self locking feature (like a locknut) or utilize a mechanical lock (cotter pin, bent tab washer, etc). We were constantly asked why we could not use cheaper non-locking nuts and split or star washers rather then the more expensive self locking parts. We always said "sure, if they can pass the test", where the test was providing some self locking/resistance to rotation without any preload on the bolt. There aren't many split washers on airplanes.Tweco Fabricator 211iSieg X2 AMT radial arm drill pressAMT belt/disk sanderHF 4X6 bandsaw
Reply:Spring or split ring washers were banned by NASA on the old Space Station Freedom program back in the early 90's.  I have a tech document somewhere showing they are worse than ineffective, just like the video shows.  That's about the same time I stopped using them.  When I find them, or they come with some kit bag, I just toss them into my 55 gallon steel crap barrel.Can't find the NASA document, but here's Pirate4x4's BillaVista's paper on bolts.  The lock washer discussion starts on page 12.https://www.pirate4x4.com/d1/tech/bi...lts_signed.pdfAmerica's enemies best ally,the Democratic Party!
Reply:In a joint, if you don't lose preload, you don't need self locking, but if you lose preload, you need it to keep from losing the fastener.  Loose joints are bad, unfastened ones are worse.  For extremely critical joints (single point failure) FAA regs required dual locking.  Google FAR 25.607 if interestedTweco Fabricator 211iSieg X2 AMT radial arm drill pressAMT belt/disk sanderHF 4X6 bandsaw
Reply:Originally Posted by jrporterIn a joint, if you don't lose preload, you don't need self locking, but if you lose preload, you need it to keep from losing the fastener.  Loose joints are bad, unfastened ones are worse.  For extremely critical joints (single point failure) FAA regs required dual locking.  Google FAR 25.607 if interested
Reply:The most extravagant locking methods seem to be on nuts that control preload on bearings...................which are actually mostly no preload, but have a designated endplay.........so the nut is not in stress, it's floating if it doesn't have a locking method that keeps it in place.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammmThe most extravagant locking methods seem to be on nuts that control preload on bearings...................which are actually mostly no preload, but have a designated endplay.........so the nut is not in stress, it's floating if it doesn't have a locking method that keeps it in place.
Reply:Originally Posted by 12V71Except for double lock nut hub bearings with a keeper ring on most large truck and trailer axle ends.  I've also worked with some very slow speed tapered roller bearings that had a 650 Lb Ft preload torque on the nut. (LeTourneau pivot spindles on the big scrapers)
Reply:As a young fella, teenager years............I thought you had to have a preload on a spindle bearing.  Luckily, the bearings wore in fairly fast, and created the required endplay, without the wheel departing the area for a better climate
Reply:Here's a fun thing for y'all that don't really understand Timken bearings.Preload your bearings on your trailer.  Not gorilla tight, just snug....................Run down the road for about a mile, and feel the hub.  It'll probably be hot.Then back off the nut, and do it right (snug, then back off one castillated notch).  Run down the road the same distance, feel the hub, and it'll be markedly cooler.A lot of spindles are set up like a micrometer.  The TPI will give you a predictable endplay if you properly snug the bearing, then back off the required portion of a turn.  This is why spindles are fine thread.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammmYou have to admit that there's been a sea change in truck bearings.  The old school approach was allowing for about .0015 endplay on a tapered roller bearing.  Today, we're looking at pre assembled cartridge type stuff from what I hear.  They took the skill out of the mix I guess.I don't find the locking methods on my Class 8 stuff anything to write home about.  It's standard for the time it was built.  The wheels don't fall off if you know what you're doing.  Which is the rub............... a lot of morons don't know what they're doing.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammmAre we talking assemblies with low torque values on the fasteners, that don't adequately stretch the bolt?  I've observed that fasteners that are stretched, will seldom come loose.  The preload keeps everything tight.  IIRC, stretching is an important consideration when establishing torque values for fasteners.
Reply:Cat has used fold over locks on almost everything.
Reply:I've never used lockwashers on anything, IMHO they should be banned. Depending on the application either gr8 flats and locknuts on a critical application or gr8 flats, regular nuts and Loctite............Mike
Reply:Originally Posted by bigb..................................................  ......................https://www.boltscience.com/pages/he...ingwashers.htm
Reply:Most of the bolts used today are too small for the application they are chosen for so whatever you use could be wrong. But a split lock washer properly made works, if it is sized for the application. Ny-locks when hot spin right off. Lock tight is like crazy glue sometimes it works sometimes it does not. Flange nuts are ok to a point, and that point is when there is a deformation of the material the flange nut will not take up the slack, and the nut can spin off. That is where the split lock washer wins. But again most bolts are extremely undersized today so the whole contest is null and void. Sincerely, William McCormickIf I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.
Reply:A properly made lock nut will tighten the nut or bolt when vibration occurs. That might be a left-hand thread lock nut. Sincerely, William McCormickIf I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.And if you look at the second test with the lock washer under the bolt, it did stop it from coming out that is what it is supposed to do. If it loosens the teeth are designed to grab and hold the bolt from coming out. You need to know what the application is for. Head bolts are designed to stretch and keep tension on the bolt so it does not come loose, you would not want a lock washer because of the high torque and because the engine would fail before the lock washer did its job. On a piece of machinery that runs all the time, you can get vibration that will loosen bolts, bolts will stretch bolts will wear, so they put a lock washer in there and they keep the bolt from coming out hopefully till the next maintenance cycle. If you really do not want a nut to come off you need to drill and cotter pin or you have to drill and wire tie it like they do on aircraft parts. Sincerely, William McCormickLast edited by William McCormick; 1 Week Ago at 07:07 PM.If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammmYou have to admit that there's been a sea change in truck bearings.  The old school approach was allowing for about .0015 endplay on a tapered roller bearing.  Today, we're looking at pre assembled cartridge type stuff from what I hear.  They took the skill out of the mix I guess.I don't find the locking methods on my Class 8 stuff anything to write home about.  It's standard for the time it was built.  The wheels don't fall off if you know what you're doing.  Which is the rub............... a lot of morons don't know what they're doing.
Reply:I gave up on split locks years ago when changing cultivator shovels... they would spit out and let the bolts come loose after a couple days in the field. Now I rarely use them unless it's a special situation like valve covers or manifold bolts that come with them on.250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC StickF-225 amp Forney AC Stick230 amp Sears AC StickLincoln 180C MIGVictor Medalist 350 O/ACut 50 PlasmaLes
Reply:Originally Posted by whtbaronI gave up on split locks years ago when changing cultivator shovels... they would spit out and let the bolts come loose after a couple days in the field. Now I rarely use them unless it's a special situation like valve covers or manifold bolts that come with them on.
Reply:Yes, in that application I've gone to flat washers and double nuts. The double nut serves 2 purposes. It locks the first nut from coming loose and protects the thread from damage so you can take them apart again when the shovels are worn out.250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC StickF-225 amp Forney AC Stick230 amp Sears AC StickLincoln 180C MIGVictor Medalist 350 O/ACut 50 PlasmaLes
Reply:Originally Posted by William McCormickA double nut has never failed me. A nut and acorn nut has also never failed me. Sincerely, William McCormick
Reply:I don't think the cultivator shovels care that much...250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC StickF-225 amp Forney AC Stick230 amp Sears AC StickLincoln 180C MIGVictor Medalist 350 O/ACut 50 PlasmaLes
Reply:Originally Posted by whtbaronI don't think the cultivator shovels care that much...
Reply:“Ny-locks when hot spin right off”…How hot?Some of the ones that hold  raincaps on exhaust stacksof diesel driven equipment get pretty hot, with a lot of vibration and I’ve never seen one spin itself off.Miller a/c-d/c Thunderbolt XLMillermatic 180 Purox O/ASmith Littletorch O/AHobart Champion Elite
Reply:Originally Posted by Lis2323Nothing says "I actually give a sh*t" more than using acorn nuts on a project. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply:Originally Posted by jpump5“Ny-locks when hot spin right off”…How hot?Some of the ones that hold  raincaps on exhaust stacksof diesel driven equipment get pretty hot, with a lot of vibration and I’ve never seen one spin itself off.
Reply:Originally Posted by 12V71Personally, I've never had much use for split lockwashers except for "soft" joints using gaskets, etc. the spring tension seems to help hold the clamp load. In a "hard" joint even a properly torqued plain nut with hardened washers is better. Flange nuts and bolts are the stuff for truck frames, beaten down good and tight they will never loosen.  In the 80's I worked for a company that did plenty of heavy equipment work, our shop manager was a guy with a degree and zero real time experience. He caught 3 of us installing cutting edges on a D9 dozer blade and flipped out because we weren't using split locks. I personally grabbed his azz by the lapel and dragged him to the front office to see the owner, "He goes or I go" was the discussion... I explained the problem we were having in an hour long powwow, The boss offered to let the guy try laying on his back torching out junk blade frogs but he wasn't having any of that, us guys with experience were the problem according to Mr. Degree. The real suck part was I had to do his job starting the next day.
Reply:I have used these https://www.nord-lock.com/en-us/nord...SAAEgILfvD_BwE on i had tried everything to keep the bolts in this was on a tophead motor, it was vibrating loose, these have not came loose in 800 hours usually it was every few days up there tightening boltsDo not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
Reply:May be worth the viewing...Sent from my SM-A426U using Tapatalk
Reply:Originally Posted by SlowxjMay be worth the viewing...Sent from my SM-A426U using Tapatalk