Stair Railing Layout and Measuring

admin

Hello all, I’m “new” here. Well, new account as my old one got deleted. Anyway, I just bought a house and it has a nice deep garage that I can set my shop up in to do side work and I’m looking to get into railings for residential/commercial. I work in aviation now, which is repetitive and mostly JUST welding. I did do hundreds of railings before at a prior company but never measured in the field, was mostly working off CAD drawings. I will admit I am fairy rusty on the layout aspect, and was wondering how you guys measure and lay out for stair railing. The info is limited for what I can find. I saw one that made sense, was a guy on a Kings Metals video and he has a standard 4x4 baseplate with a small 1x1 tube welding in the middle, and he put these on the blank stair case where they would go if a railing was there and measure the points on the slope and the straight.But I remember doing a ton of math when I even had the railings all drawn up and I just don’t want to make a mistake with a new customer. I was thinking this was a good way to measure, and then getting an digital angle finder to use on the treads and my layout should be good? Plus 36” height for code, no more than 4in picket spacing, etc. If you have any tips for layout please post it up. Or if you have any insight on how to get these kinds of jobs. I joined some neighborhood forums to advertise that I’m a welder in the area, but if you have any more tips that would be great, thanks!
Reply:Embrace the mistakes and learn to correct them.  Many other variables out side layout to cause issues. Good luck.
Reply:Thank you. Where I haven’t done them in a few years I just don’t feel confident enough, although I imagine it’ll be like riding a bike. Would you say the information I’ve found is a good way to lay them out? Thanks for the reply.
Reply:Yes,  that would be a start.  There are/were thread on this website with different techniques for building railing.
Reply:Originally Posted by J93WelderHello all, I’m “new” here. Well, new account as my old one got deleted. Anyway, I just bought a house and it has a nice deep garage that I can set my shop up in to do side work and I’m looking to get into railings for residential/commercial. I work in aviation now, which is repetitive and mostly JUST welding. I did do hundreds of railings before at a prior company but never measured in the field, was mostly working off CAD drawings. I will admit I am fairy rusty on the layout aspect, and was wondering how you guys measure and lay out for stair railing. The info is limited for what I can find. I saw one that made sense, was a guy on a Kings Metals video and he has a standard 4x4 baseplate with a small 1x1 tube welding in the middle, and he put these on the blank stair case where they would go if a railing was there and measure the points on the slope and the straight.But I remember doing a ton of math when I even had the railings all drawn up and I just don’t want to make a mistake with a new customer. I was thinking this was a good way to measure, and then getting an digital angle finder to use on the treads and my layout should be good? Plus 36” height for code, no more than 4in picket spacing, etc. If you have any tips for layout please post it up. Or if you have any insight on how to get these kinds of jobs. I joined some neighborhood forums to advertise that I’m a welder in the area, but if you have any more tips that would be great, thanks!
Reply:Outstanding!Miller Multimatic 220ACMiller Thunderbolt 225Victor OA
Reply:Most codes give the max and minimum for the rise and run of a stair.  A rough carpentry rule of thumb says that multiply the rise and run together and you should get between 70 and 75.  So a 7.5 inch rise and a ten inch run is maximum for rise.   If you have a 7 inch rise then the run should be 10.7 to 10 inches.  I was told that a 7.5 rise is about the limit.  An 8 inch rise is uncomfortable and likely not code.
Reply:Originally Posted by William McCormickI used to make a lot of rails and stairs years ago now just for friends. But I used Cadd to lay them out, most were pipe railings. I would go to the job, I found that it is was best to take a level and a tape measure. I would draw a rough sketch so I could put the measurements on the sketch. I would measure the top deck, and then I would measure from the front of the bullnose of the top deck to the level that I had sitting on the second step perpendicular to the earth, and get the actual length of the first step. Then I would repeat that for each step, sounds like a lot of work but I had it down to about five minutes. I used to actually do both sides of a stoop like that and then split the difference of the angles. I would also drop the level on the top of each step and raise it usually but sometimes lower it to get how much the step was out of level, I would eyeball it, maybe an eighth inch, maybe a quarter, maybe three-eighths of an inch or a half or even five-eighths of an inch and three-quarters of an inch. Then I would just draw that into cadd complete with the actual angle of the steps and stoop or top platform. The top platform can be out an inch and quarter or more. Now I had an exact picture of what I was going to make. And then I would draw the rail and using a program that another fellow supplied most of the code for I would press a button and get the start and stop marks for where to place the pipe die on the straight pipe and just bend away. Before I did it with cadd, I used to chalk it out on a five by ten or a six by ten layout table or the floor and then make rails to match. This how I used to make them with Cadd. This is a rail that is bent in one piece using that program.
Reply:This is how you measure stairs for railings, you can use baseplate or core drill.My example shows a railing less than 6 ft with 2 posts, but in reality you wouldn't need the middle post, it's just for illustration purposes,https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...8c4f2b9da8.jpgI can't stress this enoughYou do not need a digital angle finder,You do not need baseplates with 1x1 tubes welded to them, all you need is a level to take the measurementsIf you take any more measurements or angles than what I have drawn, you're wasting time.Last edited by MetalMan23; 04-14-2020 at 10:35 PM. http://www.philswelding.com
Reply:I'll make some more drawings tomorrow to show you the fabrication aspect of it, and how to stay 36" high while transitioning down stairs. http://www.philswelding.com
Reply:Originally Posted by MetalMan23This is how you measure stairs for railings, you can use baseplate or core drill.My example shows a railing less than 6 ft with 2 posts, but in reality you wouldn't need the middle post, it's just for illustration purposes,https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...8c4f2b9da8.jpgI can't stress this enoughYou do not need a digital angle finder,You do not need baseplates with 1x1 tubes welded to them, all you need is a level to take the measurementsIf you take any more measurements or angles than what I have drawn, you're wasting time.
Reply:Originally Posted by Lis2323Wow.  Beautiful!   That railing is prolly worth more than the house!
Reply:Originally Posted by MetalMan23This is how you measure stairs for railings, you can use baseplate or core drill.My example shows a railing less than 6 ft with 2 posts, but in reality you wouldn't need the middle post, it's just for illustration purposes,https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...8c4f2b9da8.jpgI can't stress this enoughYou do not need a digital angle finder,You do not need baseplates with 1x1 tubes welded to them, all you need is a level to take the measurementsIf you take any more measurements or angles than what I have drawn, you're wasting time.
Reply:There is no rule that says the rise and run of the steps  has to match the actual pitch of the step. How do you measure 10 foot rise steps inside a house?  Nice rails. Compound bend, well done. Oh, you removed a similar rail. looks like water infiltration/ freeze in balusters, newel and bottom rail.Last edited by tapwelder; 04-22-2020 at 02:37 AM.
Reply:My point, no shame in using a digital level or angle finder.  It is easier to use and versatile and can be consistently used.
Reply:my tip for a guy just starting out is to learn all you can about laying out iron. anyone can run a bead or hold a cutting torch. i worked with master layout guys that used nothing more than soapstone and the top of the bench to do stair and rail calculations. even these guys propped up a section like you described if they thought something wasn't right.i.u.o.e. # 15queens, ny and sunny fla
Reply:Originally Posted by docweldermy tip for a guy just starting out is to learn all you can about laying out iron. anyone can run a bead or hold a cutting torch. i worked with master layout guys that used nothing more than soapstone and the top of the bench to do stair and rail calculations. even these guys propped up a section like you described if they thought something wasn't right.
Reply:Originally Posted by Lis2323Case in point.  It’s not the gear you got it’s the smarts and EXPERIENCE you absorb. I befriended a REAL old guy (total f’in train wreck) last winter.  He did the most amazing railing work for custom high end homes in the area.   He was THE guy builders and home owners called. Unfortunately I have no pics of his work but here is his shop before he was evicted from his home. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...f020ad5c95.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...9bb5af3462.jpg
Reply:Originally Posted by tapwelderThere is no rule that says the rise and run of the steps  has to match the actual pitch of the step. How do you measure 10 foot rise steps inside a house?  Nice rails. Compound bend, well done. Oh, you removed a similar rail. looks like water infiltration/ freeze in balusters, newel and bottom rail.
Reply:Originally Posted by tapwelderThere is no rule that says the rise and run of the steps  has to match the actual pitch of the step. How do you measure 10 foot rise steps inside a house?  Nice rails. Compound bend, well done. Oh, you removed a similar rail. looks like water infiltration/ freeze in balusters, newel and bottom rail.
Reply:Originally Posted by tapwelderThere is no rule that says the rise and run of the steps  has to match the actual pitch of the step. How do you measure 10 foot rise steps inside a house?  Nice rails. Compound bend, well done. Oh, you removed a similar rail. looks like water infiltration/ freeze in balusters, newel and bottom rail.
Reply:Nice rails. What is the time difference in fabrication Aluminum vs steel rails?  how do you weld them? How do you treat butt joints that need to be flush welded?.... this is an issue that seems to fail in many beautifully done rail.  I have done several repairs on Ally pipe rails that fail at joints.
Reply:Originally Posted by tapwelderNice rails. What is the time difference in fabrication Aluminum vs steel rails?  how do you weld them? How do you treat butt joints that need to be flush welded?.... this is an issue that seems to fail in many beautifully done rail.  I have done several repairs on Ally pipe rails that fail at joints.
Reply:Duplicate postLast edited by William McCormick; 04-29-2020 at 11:59 PM.Reason: DuplicateIf I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.
Reply:Thanks.  I will try bid some ally rails.  I have noticed on repairs no real prep.I usually clean breaks.  I was recently on site doing an install, I noticed some ally pipe rails that were installed 10 years ago.  I had admired the quality of the work at the time. Now they are broken apart at several joints.Originally Posted by tapwelderNice rails. What is the time difference in fabrication Aluminum vs steel rails?  how do you weld them? How do you treat butt joints that need to be flush welded?.... this is an issue that seems to fail in many beautifully done rail.  I have done several repairs on Ally pipe rails that fail at joints.
Reply:Originally Posted by tapwelderThanks.  I will try bid some ally rails.  I have noticed on repairs no real prep.I usually clean breaks.  I was recently on site doing an install, I noticed some ally pipe rails that were installed 10 years ago.  I had admired the quality of the work at the time. Now they are broken apart at several joints.
Reply:Originally Posted by tapwelderThere is no rule that says the rise and run of the steps  has to match the actual pitch of the step. How do you measure 10 foot rise steps inside a house?  Nice rails. Compound bend, well done. Oh, you removed a similar rail. looks like water infiltration/ freeze in balusters, newel and bottom rail.
Reply:Originally Posted by MetalMan23This is how you measure stairs for railings, you can use baseplate or core drill.My example shows a railing less than 6 ft with 2 posts, but in reality you wouldn't need the middle post, it's just for illustration purposes,https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...8c4f2b9da8.jpgI can't stress this enoughYou do not need a digital angle finder,You do not need baseplates with 1x1 tubes welded to them, all you need is a level to take the measurementsIf you take any more measurements or angles than what I have drawn, you're wasting time.
Reply:Originally Posted by geezerI realize this is very basic, but not obvious to me. What is the significance of the 36" and 21" measurements. I ask because I have couple handrails to build at my house and want to lay them out properly. Thank you
Reply:Originally Posted by geezerI realize this is very basic, but not obvious to me. What is the significance of the 36" and 21" measurements. I ask because I have couple handrails to build at my house and want to lay them out properly. Thank you
Reply:Originally Posted by William McCormickThe 21" represents the drop from the top of the stoop to the middle step that is going to have a baluster, upright, or vertical, mounted to it. The 42" represents the distance from the top of the stoop down to the last step where another baluster, vertical or upright will go. The 36 represents how far from the front edge of the stoop horizontally to the front of the middle step, where the baluster, upright, or vertical, will go. The same for the 72. I used to measure using the least amount of input myself. Then as I got older I realized that if I took all the measurements I could even figure out a bad measurement from all the other measurements in most cases. Did you ever scribble something and later not be able to read it? I have, I note things like are all the steps pretty much the same length and all about the same height. Then when I go back if I have one step that is off compared to all the others I can figure out what it was supposed to be. I measure a stoop with every measurement there is to it in under seven minutes. And I have never had to go back. Sincerely, William McCormick
Reply:Originally Posted by J93WelderHello all, I’m “new” here. Well, new account as my old one got deleted. Anyway, I just bought a house and it has a nice deep garage that I can set my shop up in to do side work and I’m looking to get into railings for residential/commercial. I work in aviation now, which is repetitive and mostly JUST welding. I did do hundreds of railings before at a prior company but never measured in the field, was mostly working off CAD drawings. I will admit I am fairy rusty on the layout aspect, and was wondering how you guys measure and lay out for stair railing. The info is limited for what I can find. I saw one that made sense, was a guy on a Kings Metals video and he has a standard 4x4 baseplate with a small 1x1 tube welding in the middle, and he put these on the blank stair case where they would go if a railing was there and measure the points on the slope and the straight.But I remember doing a ton of math when I even had the railings all drawn up and I just don’t want to make a mistake with a new customer. I was thinking this was a good way to measure, and then getting an digital angle finder to use on the treads and my layout should be good? Plus 36” height for code, no more than 4in picket spacing, etc. If you have any tips for layout please post it up. Or if you have any insight on how to get these kinds of jobs. I joined some neighborhood forums to advertise that I’m a welder in the area, but if you have any more tips that would be great, thanks!
Reply:Originally Posted by wb4rtTo the original poster’s question:Since I am neither school trained nor building expensive, complex rails, on the 20+ porch railings that I have built I used a 2x4, level, and an angle finder to create a story board. Laying the board on the steps, I use a marker to mark the front edge of each step, a level to mark plumb for the posts, and angle finder to mark the angle. At my small shop I use this story board plus my field notes to layout the rails. Since my confidence needs some confirmation, I have often taken just the shell back to the job site for a test fit before going too far. Actually never had to adjust but helps my peace of mind. Also the hardest part for me is to determine the exact post height from the step/landing to the bottom rail. I have found it easier to get the shell blocked plumb and correct height off step nose on-site, then tack the posts. I expect you pros will get a laugh out of my primitive methods but it works for me. A little effort and ingenuity can compensate for CAD programs and school trained engineering.Anyway, my customers have all been well pleased with the results. I only wish I was able to do some of the rails pictured above!
Reply:Originally Posted by MetalMan23I'll make some more drawings tomorrow to show you the fabrication aspect of it, and how to stay 36" high while transitioning down stairs.
Reply:i usually find it is easier lay out stairs on concrete floor using chalk or soapstone after confirming field measurements. not unusual for actual field dimensions to be different than the drawing.just saying its easier to draw or layout with soapstone cause its easier to erase and redo layout if needed. obviously if you got a very big bench you might prefer laying out on the bench,
Reply:Originally Posted by WNY_TomBi usually find it is easier lay out stairs on concrete floor using chalk or soapstone after confirming field measurements. not unusual for actual field dimensions to be different than the drawing.just saying its easier to draw or layout with soapstone cause its easier to erase and redo layout if needed. obviously if you got a very big bench you might prefer laying out on the bench,
Reply:Got the railing in. Just have to mount the back and side pieces now. Sincerely, William McCormickIf I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.
Reply:Now my granddaughter can throw the ball up the stairs and it bounces down to her. Before it would go right or left. Haha, she loves it. Sincerely, William McCormickIf I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.
Reply:Originally Posted by geezerI realize Phil is super busy with work and building a very respectable welding truck, so I am not going to bother him, but I am just wondering if he completed any additional drawings showing the fabrication. Obviously I have a few handrails to do and the info would be value added.
Reply:Thanks for sharing. Nice work.Any scientific calculator will convert fractions and can be purchased for a fraction on a construction calculator. That would be a proper fraction with a unit in the numerator and large denominator worth of savings.
Reply:Originally Posted by William McCormickNo not if you penetrate the joints. Like I said most guys just do a cosmetic weld. You have to go slow and let both base metals mix and then add filler then you get a gnarly weld that can be a pain in the *** to remove if you put it in the wrong spot.Sincerely, William McCormick
Reply:Originally Posted by William McCormickThis how I used to make them with Cadd.
Reply:Originally Posted by GarryNicksonThank you for introducing the capabilities of Cadd, frankly speaking, I did not know before about the existence of such a convenient tool!