50A circuit question

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hi, i believe i have this figured out but wanted to be sure and wasnt able to find any old posts on it.i'm installing a charging station in my garage and it requires a 50A circuit.i have space for a 50A breaker as this was for future charging station use but now i need to wire it. it would be about 50' to a NEMA 6-50 outlet so i'm thinking 2 runs of #6 and 1 #8 for ground?i dont know if the NEC book is open to the public but i wasnt able to find it online. thank you
Reply:Originally Posted by superwelderhi, i believe i have this figured out but wanted to be sure and wasnt able to find any old posts on it.i'm installing a charging station in my garage and it requires a 50A circuit.i have space for a 50A breaker as this was for future charging station use but now i need to wire it. it would be about 50' to a NEMA 6-50 outlet so i'm thinking 2 runs of #6 and 1 #8 for ground?i dont know if the NEC book is open to the public but i wasnt able to find it online. thank you
Reply:If to feed a 6-50 outlet then as you stated your 2 hot #6's are perfect but your ground only needs a #10 and no need for neutral on that outlet. Up to like 50 feet approx.
Reply:thank you guys. if i can use #10 for ground that would be great, i have a ton of it haha.i understand the equipment ground but if this is a plug (not hardwired) is it considered equipment?also, i'll find a calculator but i believe 3/4" conduit would code.
Reply:Originally Posted by superwelderthank you guys. if i can use #10 for ground that would be great, i have a ton of it haha.i understand the equipment ground but if this is a plug (not hardwired) is it considered equipment?also, i'll find a calculator but i believe 3/4" conduit would code.
Reply:The NEC is apparently available online at: https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-stand...ds/free-accessEDIT: removed some incorrect GFCI protection info....Thanks, rexcormack!  I wish we just had a strike though edit feature and that the darn site didn't limit the time window for edits.Lance Attached ImagesProposed_TIA_1242_NFPA_70.pdf (51.8 KB, 13 views)Last edited by LanceR; 04-30-2021 at 08:20 AM.LanceMultimatic 255 w/MDX-250 EZ-Select gunHypertherm Powermax45 XPHeck Bevel Mill 4000Miller/Smith heavy duty torch set9" Evolution circular saw
Reply:LanceR,It says 150 volts or less  TO GROUND so a 230 volt circuit would be 115 volts TO GROUND soit looks like it would need GFCI if in a wet location.WillieB, am I reading that correctly?
Reply:Originally Posted by rexcormackLanceR,It says 150 volts or less  TO GROUND so a 230 volt circuit would be 115 volts TO GROUND soit looks like it would need GFCI if in a wet location.WillieB, am I reading that correctly?
Reply:Originally Posted by rexcormackLanceR,It says 150 volts or less  TO GROUND so a 230 volt circuit would be 115 volts TO GROUND soit looks like it would need GFCI if in a wet location.WillieB, am I reading that correctly?
Reply:https://www.eaton.com/us/en-us/compa...tion.html#GFCI
Reply:Don’t install a gfci of any sort, it will cause you nothing but problems, it is in a garage, no need to have it, unless you like having a dead battery and enjoy the walk to the circuit box, then by all means put one in. The plug on my wifes tesla has a temperature sensor of some sort. I get alerts of high temperature when it is charging for long periods. I have felt it, it feels warm, but not hot. No discernible degradation at the wire connection points. I am likely going to put in the 14-50 that it was originally set up for. You would be wise to run a slightly larger conduit, and to add a neutral to your bundle of wires. It won’t cost that much more, but gives you a lot more options in the future.
Reply:Originally Posted by walkerDon’t install a gfci of any sort, it will cause you nothing but problems, it is in a garage, no need to have it, unless you like having a dead battery and enjoy the walk to the circuit box, then by all means put one in. The plug on my wifes tesla has a temperature sensor of some sort. I get alerts of high temperature when it is charging for long periods. I have felt it, it feels warm, but not hot. No discernible degradation at the wire connection points. I am likely going to put in the 14-50 that it was originally set up for. You would be wise to run a slightly larger conduit, and to add a neutral to your bundle of wires. It won’t cost that much more, but gives you a lot more options in the future.
Reply:thanks again guys. i do not plan on using GFCI, like you mentioned, its in the garage and i dont feel like resetting it every couple hours.yes i was planning on running THHN but is it different if i do NM-B? i was thinking worse case, if i cant run conduit easily ill just grab a 50' roll of romex. also, actual measurement comes out to 47'.
Reply:Originally Posted by superwelderthanks again guys. i do not plan on using GFCI, like you mentioned, its in the garage and i dont feel like resetting it every couple hours.yes i was planning on running THHN but is it different if i do NM-B? i was thinking worse case, if i cant run conduit easily ill just grab a 50' roll of romex. also, actual measurement comes out to 47'.
Reply:one more question for you guys. i'm not planning on doing this but i've always been curious. say you run a wire from the breaker to a junction box then using wire nuts make another run to another box, does this change anything? i know ive see this done on 120v 15A circuits but if your running a 40 or 50A+ circuit to a welder/compressor/dryer do you have to derate the wiring?
Reply:Challenge isn't can you splice, it's how you splice. Normally we try to put high current loads on dedicated circuits. NEC may not define dedicated circuit. To me it means as few connections as possible. There are a dozen electricians on this forum. We won't agree on how to splice. One thing I won't get argument on is a continuous conductor won't have risk inherent in spliced conductor.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:i totally agree on that last statement. just curious. i'm not an electrician but theres GOT to be a situation where a dedicated (continuous) conductor isnt possible. right?
Reply:Originally Posted by superwelderi totally agree on that last statement. just curious. i'm not an electrician but theres GOT to be a situation where a dedicated (continuous) conductor isnt possible. right?
Reply:Originally Posted by superwelderi totally agree on that last statement. just curious. i'm not an electrician but theres GOT to be a situation where a dedicated (continuous) conductor isnt possible. right?
Reply:I'm a little late to the party - but just a thought. If you are going through the process to put in that circuit it might be well worth your effort to add 1 more 6g wire for neutral and run a 14-50 outlet. Then adapt from 14-50 to 6-50 between the outlet and the charger. This way you have both voltages available there for future use.That is what I did here. My old tombstone (round top) came with a range cord on it - NMEA 10-50. So when I set up my inital power cable (from a dryer outlet - 14-30) I wired to a box with a 10-50 for the welder and also put a 5-20r and L14-30r on there. The 5-20 has both horizontal and vertical neutrals so you can use either 5-15 or 5-20. That's my tool plug (drill, grinder, what ever).However, when I got my inverter welder it came with a 6-50 plug on it. At the same time I decided to upgrade to a dedicated circuit - new cable, wall mounted outlet (not the dryer circuit). I kept the same theory of the 4 conductor cable, just with 14-50's, with the addition of one more interconnect - at the end of a 25ft extension cord. If I was running a welder alone then yea - the extra neutral/4th wire is useless. But I really like having everything right there at the welder so I can run my 120v gear off the same box. That makes life a lot easier than running a separate extension cord. Make sure what ever you "install" is to code - outlet box back to the breaker. Yea, in my case splitting off the 120v and 30a plugs isn't code (they should have separate breakers), but for my uses I'm OK with that - and everything past the wall outlet isn't "installed" anyway - extension cord and the break out box. See post 154 for the cabling, 153 has the cord upgrade on the round top welder. https://weldingweb.com/vbb/threads/7...47#post8812147As far as splicing cables - I don't think that will work very well on bigger cables. You may look in to terminal blocks and putting ring terminals on your wires. For 6 gauge wire that will be a beefy terminal strip and require a substantial box. You're probably not going to make that kind of splice in a 2 gang wall box, for example.
Reply:Split bolts are pretty nice for connections with thick wire (larger than ~10 ga).
Reply:I've used several of this type splice kit in the past.They are well made and work good but they do need some room!https://www.morrisproducts.com/pc_pr...9F44E287D7E943
Reply:Originally Posted by jwmelvinSplit bolts are pretty nice for connections with thick wire (larger than ~10 ga).
Reply:so today i took a look at the charger and its actually 14-50. i dont know why i was assuming it was 6-50. i will def do a 6/3.thank you
Reply:Originally Posted by bigb... the insulated Polaris type connectors have moved in, quick, easy, minimum skill required and easily reversible.In earlier days split bolts seemed to dominate as the connector used most on high current connections. I wonder if it is only age, but I've seen numerous failures in split bolt connections. I have one to deal with today. The failure begins with a bit of surface oxidation on aluminum or copper conductor. Oxide doesn't conduct well, so voltage is lost in the connection. The lost voltage caused by resistance makes heat. The connection further deteriorates until it gets repaired, or burns off. In the days 50 years ago when the power company paid for your service it was common practice to bring 4/0 aluminum from the meter, then splice to two #1 or #2 aluminum to supply two 100 amp breaker panels. This is the most common fail point. The split bolt connections are bulky & it takes a mountain of three types of tape to properly insulate them where pressure against the trough won't compress the hot tape to short circuit. It's something we don't usually do any more.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:Originally Posted by Willie BIt's something we don't usually do any more.
Reply:Originally Posted by FlyFishnI'm a little late to the party - but just a thought. If you are going through the process to put in that circuit it might be well worth your effort to add 1 more 6g wire for neutral and run a 14-50 outlet. Then adapt from 14-50 to 6-50 between the outlet and the charger. This way you have both voltages available there for future use.That is what I did here. My old tombstone (round top) came with a range cord on it - NMEA 10-50. So when I set up my inital power cable (from a dryer outlet - 14-30) I wired to a box with a 10-50 for the welder and also put a 5-20r and L14-30r on there. The 5-20 has both horizontal and vertical neutrals so you can use either 5-15 or 5-20. That's my tool plug (drill, grinder, what ever).However, when I got my inverter welder it came with a 6-50 plug on it. At the same time I decided to upgrade to a dedicated circuit - new cable, wall mounted outlet (not the dryer circuit). I kept the same theory of the 4 conductor cable, just with 14-50's, with the addition of one more interconnect - at the end of a 25ft extension cord. If I was running a welder alone then yea - the extra neutral/4th wire is useless. But I really like having everything right there at the welder so I can run my 120v gear off the same box. That makes life a lot easier than running a separate extension cord. Make sure what ever you "install" is to code - outlet box back to the breaker. Yea, in my case splitting off the 120v and 30a plugs isn't code (they should have separate breakers), but for my uses I'm OK with that - and everything past the wall outlet isn't "installed" anyway - extension cord and the break out box. See post 154 for the cabling, 153 has the cord upgrade on the round top welder. https://weldingweb.com/vbb/threads/7...47#post8812147As far as splicing cables - I don't think that will work very well on bigger cables. You may look in to terminal blocks and putting ring terminals on your wires. For 6 gauge wire that will be a beefy terminal strip and require a substantial box. You're probably not going to make that kind of splice in a 2 gang wall box, for example.
Reply:Originally Posted by danielplaceThat is not so good. SE/romex for extension cord. Drop corner/end of metal on that you might get lit up. Really thin covering on those cables. Pulling 15/20 amp 120 outlets off 50 amp 240 feed. Seriously.  https://weldingweb.com/vbb/threads/7...47#post8812147
Reply:Originally Posted by jwmelvinIn favor of Polaris connectors? Or is there another good alternative?
Reply:Originally Posted by Willie BBut if I had a Nickle for every time a farmer defended his totally unsafe workmanship with "It works don't it?"Farmers won't play the safety game..
Reply:Originally Posted by jwmelvinIn favor of Polaris connectors? Or is there another good alternative?
Reply:Originally Posted by bigbCept for Samm, you don't mean Samm right?
Reply:one last question for you guys. is there any difference between these 3? trying to find out why theres so much of a price difference. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwir...0032/204765156https://www.lowes.com/pd/Southwire-R...-Roll/50188983https://www.grainger.com/product/SOU...g-Cable-55CX35thanks again.
Reply:You just buy book.If charging car it looks like they are use 20 amp 240 volt. But welding so I would in stall 50 amps and you down grade for 20 amos.Dave  Originally Posted by superwelderhi, i believe i have this figured out but wanted to be sure and wasnt able to find any old posts on it.i'm installing a charging station in my garage and it requires a 50A circuit.i have space for a 50A breaker as this was for future charging station use but now i need to wire it. it would be about 50' to a NEMA 6-50 outlet so i'm thinking 2 runs of #6 and 1 #8 for ground?i dont know if the NEC book is open to the public but i wasnt able to find it online. thank you
Reply:I believe same product. One might not have the lubricant on the jacket. Cable prices have skyrocketed! Last time prices jumped so suddenly was 2001 when they demolished some important buildings killing thousands of Americans. American retailers responded with price gouging never before seen.Last edited by Willie B; 05-06-2021 at 06:59 PM.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:i dont know why i didnt use my full brain before but i checked the model number and all 3 are the same haha.willie, do you remember what something like this would have cost back then? just curious.
Reply:Originally Posted by superwelderi dont know why i didnt use my full brain before but i checked the model number and all 3 are the same haha.willie, do you remember what something like this would have cost back then? just curious.
Reply:thanks for the info. crazy how these prices can change so quickly.
Reply:Originally Posted by superwelderone last question for you guys. is there any difference between these 3? trying to find out why theres so much of a price difference. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwir...0032/204765156https://www.lowes.com/pd/Southwire-R...-Roll/50188983https://www.grainger.com/product/SOU...g-Cable-55CX35thanks again.
Reply:Get the proper materials. Aluminum wire is NOT one of them.You really don't ever want to wire a welder in aluminum. Don't wire anything with aluminum. Aluminum sucks mostly because of it's expansion rate when heated. You tighten it tight, It gets loaded, it gets hot and expands and crushes the wire in the connection while it expands. Then it cools and you are left with a loose connection.  https://help.leonardo-energy.org/hc/...r-vs-aluminium
Reply:thank you for the advice Fly, the thought did cross my mind for a second but i would rather stick to something i know. when it comes to electrical i like to use what i know how to use correctly.
Reply:so a little update. i was able to get the wire from grainger. finally got into the attic and it looks like when the house was built, someone used that 50A breaker and conduit that was supposed to be for the car, on an oven/microwave.i would really like to run a dedicated wire for the charger but i dont know how easy that would be now that i dont have the conduit i thought i did. now im wondering if i should install a box and Tee off that existing wire going to the oven. its also 6ga.i've never had to connect wires this large before. any opinions on this?also, i know that using both would trip the breaker in no time but this is a secondary kitchen which is rarely used, i also have the car programed to charge at 2am.
Reply:Breaker tripping would be a nuisance. The greater concern, you just mentioned, you don't know how to properly splice. The range & the car should each be on a dedicated circuit. Any heating in a splice will grow worse, maybe to fire stage. 50 amps will provide quite a lot of heat in a bad connection.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:I like this splice kit. I use on copper along with dielectric grease. Shrink tube is very robust and required high setting on heat gun. I don’t use aluminum wire…..so many people recommend it to save money.  It’s not always about money.  Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply:Originally Posted by mcspeedI like this splice kit. I use on copper along with dielectric grease. Shrink tube is very robust and required high setting on heat gun. I don’t use aluminum wire…..so many people recommend it to save money.  It’s not always about money.  Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply:if i were to use a mechanical splice it would be Polaris but at $30ea, i'm going to get my *** back in the attic and see what i can do.