All About: Independent Amplitude and advanced waveform controls

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Some discussion popped up about this recently, but it really was not related to the thread topic and thus will probably disappear into obscurity. I found the topic interesting so a dedicated thread seemed like a good idea.  So please share your expertise of how Independent Amplitude and other advanced waveform controls work, situations that you use any of these, specific machine settings, ideas on where one or more of these may be beneficial (Brainstorming), and of course any questions.  I just had a chance to use the Everlast "Advanced AC pulse" that I'll explain more later.  Multiple manufacturers like Miller, HTP etc offer independent amplitude adjustment. I believe Kemppi and Fronius also have some specialized waveforms. Would like to hear more about those too.  Unlike the other thread, hopefully this will not be a competition or bashing thread on which is better, but an informative resource for folks trying to learn how to best utilize their respective machines.  Explanation and use of square, soft square, triangular etc will fit here too.   Maybe a list of what machines have which advanced waveforms might be handy as well.Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Here's a thread I started on amplitude adjustment. If this thread becomes a sticky, it might be good to link other threads with info in this thread.http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...nd-EP-amperageMike ZanconatoZanconato Custom Cycles @mzank on Instagram
Reply:And yeah, I second the idea of the moderators keeping this thread "sanitized" and free of any brand competition/country of origin garbage.Mike ZanconatoZanconato Custom Cycles @mzank on Instagram
Reply:Originally Posted by zankHere's a thread I started on amplitude adjustment. If this thread becomes a sticky, it might be good to link other threads with info in this thread.http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...nd-EP-amperage
Reply:Yeah, we will keep an eye on it.All that stuff is way above my pay grade. Default settings do the job fine for me.Expert Garage Hack....https://www.facebook.com/steven.webber.948
Reply:I have used it a lot About 99% of people don't know how to use it and don't need to use itTorchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Originally Posted by zank. If this thread becomes a sticky.....
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleI have used it a lot About 99% of people don't know how to use it and don't need to use it
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleI have used it a lot About 99% of people don't know how to use it and don't need to use it
Reply:Originally Posted by OscarI guess I fall into the half-of-one percent, since I know how to use it, but I don't need to use it .  Sure is cool to see the differences at the weld joint and at the tungsten tip.
Reply:im eagerly watching this one. not that i weld aluminum often, the only real experience i have is in shop with a big ol lincoln square wave that I never messed with settings on too much.but now, in field, i occasionally run into an aluminum coil that needs flanges  welded on or the dreaded tube repair. i have only attempted with dynasty's and the setup and options scare the crap out of me so i usually just run default. i know i could do better if i knew what i was doing with those more flexible machinesbosses stuff:trailblazer 325maxstar 200my stuff:sa 200fronius transpocket 180100 amp Lincoln w/f97 f350 DITKevin
Reply:OK Southpaw, here are a couple of things that I have observed and had work for me: If you have a variable HZ choice the lower HZ settings have assisted me with welding on "dirty" aluminum castings and materials that I have chosen to be lazy about cleaning, I'm speaking in the 20 to 40hz range. I believe that the cycling of the +/- current at this setting "agitates" the weld pool more and this also provides for a longer duration on the DC+ cycle promoting more cleaning action in the arc. Additionally, I might set the balance towards the cleaning side (+) as much as I can. With these types of settings, choice of tungsten type can be very important as the tip of the tungsten will look as if it is doing an Irish Jig. I have not experimented much with many types of tungstens and have generally used Ceriated tungsten when I have done this.Generally, when I have used the elevated HZ settings it has been to provide for more energy in the weld pool (think in terms of thick materials), focuses the arc better and allows for higher travel speeds. Additionally, I have set the balance as far towards the (-) setting as I can and still have proper cleaning (if you get too much -/negative you'll see impurities in the puddle and resulting weld deposit and the bead will likely not wet-out too well). In this instance as well, I have not used a lot of different types of tungstens, mainly Ceriated here as well. With all of this I am basing these details when welding is performed on properly cleaned materials, if you are dealing with excessive oxidation or older/dirtier materials some of these details might not work so well.I have always found that personal experimentation based on suggested settings.... and adjustments to those to meet personal needs is a must. So if you don't have a particular tungsten type that others have suggested, experiment and see what comes of it. Many of us might not have access to metallurgical testing equipment, but I'd say just about everyone has a hammer, vise, anvil, or other equipment/tools that we can do some destructive testing of our own with. You can also cut, grind, polish, and etch with some simple home type acids to test your results. The brain's a bit foggy right now and I am far away from the shop to consider including additional information right now. Best regards, AllanPS. as to waveforms and such I only have used an older Thermal Arc 300 GTSW Inverter and the similar but less powerful 185 GTSW, yep, old school (no special waveforms and such, variable HZ and a few other bells), Also have a couple of Miller Dynasty 350's, but I haven't played enough with the 5 different waveforms and other features to make useful comments here as of yet. Have had limited experience with the Dynasty 200 as well.Last edited by aevald; 01-08-2016 at 10:26 PM.Reason: more infoaevald
Reply:Originally Posted by aevaldOK Southpaw, here are a couple of things that I have observed and had work for me: If you have a variable HZ choice the lower HZ settings have assisted me with welding on "dirty" aluminum castings and materials that I have chosen to be lazy about cleaning, I'm speaking in the 20 to 40hz range. I believe that the cycling of the +/- current at this setting "agitates" the weld pool more and this also provides for a longer duration on the DC+ cycle promoting more cleaning action in the arc. Additionally, I might set the balance towards the cleaning side (+) as much as I can. With these types of settings, choice of tungsten type can be very important as the tip of the tungsten will look as if it is doing an Irish Jig. I have not experimented much with many types of tungstens and have generally used Ceriated tungsten when I have done this.Generally, when I have used the elevated HZ settings it has been to provide for more energy in the weld pool (think in terms of thick materials), focuses the arc better and allows for higher travel speeds. Additionally, I have set the balance as far towards the (-) setting as I can and still have proper cleaning (if you get too much -/negative you'll see impurities in the puddle and resulting weld deposit and the bead will likely not wet-out too well). In this instance as well, I have not used a lot of different types of tungstens, mainly Ceriated here as well. With all of this I am basing these details when welding is performed on properly cleaned materials, if you are dealing with excessive oxidation or older/dirtier materials some of these details might not work so well.I have always found that personal experimentation based on suggested settings.... and adjustments to those to meet personal needs is a must. So if you don't have a particular tungsten type that others have suggested, experiment and see what comes of it. Many of us might not have access to metallurgical testing equipment, but I'd say just about everyone has a hammer, vise, anvil, or other equipment/tools that we can do some destructive testing of our own with. You can also cut, grind, polish, and etch with some simple home type acids to test your results. The brain's a bit foggy right now and I am far away from the shop to consider including additional information right now. Best regards, AllanPS. as to waveforms and such I only have used an older Thermal Arc 300 GTSW Inverter and the similar but less powerful 185 GTSW, yep, old school (no special waveforms and such, variable HZ and a few other bells), Also have a couple of Miller Dynasty 350's, but I haven't played enough with the 5 different waveforms and other features to make useful comments here as of yet. Have had limited experience with the Dynasty 200 as well.
Reply:Ok Gamble, I'll try to simplify: the HZ number is based on a specific length of time, within this time limit a higher HZ setting will provide for a greater number of (-) and (+) bursts of energy. It is also proven to focus the arc column into a smaller focal point, thus concentrating heat. With the lower HZ setting you have a lesser number of (-) and (+) bursts of energy. The focus of the arc column is also broadened and affects a wider/larger area. In addition to the characteristics provided by HZ adjustability you have the effect of the adjustment of the arc balance, more (-) will yield more heat and penetration to be delivered to the base material. The opposite is true when you shift the balance to the (+) side of the balance. In this scenario you will concentrate more heat on the tungsten and less on the parent material, but you will also provide more cleaning action on the surface of the base material through the cleaning action of the (+) side of the arc.Now back to my original statements: increasing arc balance to the (-) side and increasing HZ will provide for more time on the (-) side of the energy being delivered and a focus of this energy into a smaller area. Hence more useable arc energy for welding thicker, cleaner materials.Increasing the arc balance to the (+) side and decreasing HZ will provide for more time on the (+) side of the arc balance and also increase the length of time that each shift in phase occurs generally resulting in more cleaning action that is useable for welding on dirty materials. So in essence I'll agree to disagree with your position. Best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:Originally Posted by aevaldOk Gamble, I'll try to simplify: the HZ number is based on a specific length of time, within this time limit a higher HZ setting will provide for a greater number of (-) and (+) bursts of energy. It is also proven to focus the arc column into a smaller focal point, thus concentrating heat. With the lower HZ setting you have a lesser number of (-) and (+) bursts of energy. The focus of the arc column is also broadened and affects a wider/larger area. In addition to the characteristics provided by HZ adjustability you have the effect of the adjustment of the arc balance, more (-) will yield more heat and penetration to be delivered to the base material. The opposite is true when you shift the balance to the (+) side of the balance. In this scenario you will concentrate more heat on the tungsten and less on the parent material, but you will also provide more cleaning action on the surface of the base material through the cleaning action of the (+) side of the arc.Now back to my original statements: increasing arc balance to the (-) side and increasing HZ will provide for more time on the (-) side of the energy being delivered and a focus of this energy into a smaller area. Hence more useable arc energy for welding thicker, cleaner materials.Increasing the arc balance to the (+) side and decreasing HZ will provide for more time on the (+) side of the arc balance and also increase the length of time that each shift in phase occurs generally resulting in more cleaning action that is useable for welding on dirty materials. So in essence I'll agree to disagree with your position. Best regards, Allan
Reply:Well, this devolved quickly.Mike ZanconatoZanconato Custom Cycles @mzank on Instagram
Reply:Ok, guess I'll have to clarify what this thread is forIT IS FOR SHARING FEATURES AND CHARACTERISTICS OF WAVE SHAPE AND AMPLITUDE SETTINGS USED ON ADVANCED INVERTER TIGS!!!!In example: What an individual user has used, tried or experimented with and its related outcome... Basically a thread where ppl can share and exchange ideas regarding machine setup with others so all can benefit from it..IT WAS NOT CREATED TO ARGUE THEORY, DEFINITIONS AND OPINIONS. IT SURE AS HELL WAS NOT CREATED TO BECOME A DICK SWINGING CONTEST EITHER.ANY FURTHER POSTS REVERTING TO SUCH WILL BE REMOVED.THANKS Last edited by 7A749; 01-09-2016 at 10:10 AM.Expert Garage Hack....https://www.facebook.com/steven.webber.948
Reply:Originally Posted by OscarGamble, I do have to correct you on this:Perhaps you just used the wrong terminology, but altering the amplitudes does not accomplish that. It has nothing to do with "time"---that's what Balance controls.  I know you're basing your info on the 221s settings which only allow you to a max of 90/10 split either way, but this is not with respect to time.  The units for amplitude control are % of welding amperage, not %-of-AC-cycle.  You can control one and not the other, which is why it need not add up to 100%, because it is not with respect to a complete AC cycle the way AC balance is.
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleHow do you figure? If your wave looks like this, it's spending more "time" on one side vs the other side
Reply:Originally Posted by OscarEasy.  The vertical axis is not time.  It is amperage.  The horizontal axis is time.  Which is why time is not affected (the width of the rectangles are the same, therefore there %-of-time is identical.  Plots are no good without axis labels and units.Mods if you feel the need to delete all this info about theory, but if we agreed that most don't know what it is, then I think it is relevant.  Obviously y'alls call.  Won't hurt my feelings if all this info is gone.
Reply:7A749, I know I get caught up with techno-babble, I'm sorry but it's just in my nature from my formal education. I promise though, I'll post up some good sample pictures along with settings of my HTP 221, since I know there are quite a few people here with this machine.  Perhaps the Miller boys can do the same?  Perhaps we can set-up identical coupon samples and showcase the features from the Miller-side of the equation and from the HTP side.  I don't mind buying some aluminum just so we can have a good reference thread. 1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig! HTP Invertig 400HTP Invertig 221HTP ProPulse 300HTP ProPulse 200 x2HTP ProPulse 220MTSHTP Inverarc 200TLP HTP Microcut 875SC
Reply:Oh, no worries there Oscar. I just wanted to make sure the intention of the thread was crystal clear for anyone who may have not took the time to read it all and jumped in wanting to debate theory and argue opinions regarding their understanding of it.We all know how those discussions usually end up Technical info is great. You certainly know what you're talking about too. I guess my point was just that things stay on topic and not get dragged into an argument between differing opinions and understandings. Kinda like how trailer threads always end up eroding into a Dick swinging contest between two or more armchair engineers, arguing theory and hypothetical scenarios that are more or less completely irrelevant to the topic of discussion.Another example; the threads about wiring your own electrical service in your garage always end up turning into a five page debate between two electrical techies arguing application of building code, quantum theory and fears that the entire fabric of society will immediately collapse into a wormhole to the third dimension if the guy attempted to run his own wire and breaker box without an expert there to hold his hand and direct every single step they take..I think anyone reading this knows what I'm talking about. Good threads that get hijacked by ppl more concerned with technical definition, and looking smart before an Internet audience of strangers, rather than trusting that with a little common sense, such things are not too difficult.Hope that makes senseLast edited by 7A749; 01-09-2016 at 12:40 PM.Expert Garage Hack....https://www.facebook.com/steven.webber.948
Reply:Awesome, sounds good.  Let's see which Miller hobbyist (or anyone) who has IND-AMP, also has time and money to setup purpose-built sample coupons so we can make identical (as much as possible) samples, using as many similar settings as possible that are shared between the two machines.  Any other HTP user willing to volunteer in the name of knowledge?  Obviously we can't compete with wave-form control since we don't have it, but hey it's only an HTP 221, not a Dynasty   1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig! HTP Invertig 400HTP Invertig 221HTP ProPulse 300HTP ProPulse 200 x2HTP ProPulse 220MTSHTP Inverarc 200TLP HTP Microcut 875SC
Reply:I can throw some samples in. It may be a bit since I got a few jobs going, but I would be willing to try different stuff and post the results. That stuff is pretty Greek to me besides the real basic principles. Last edited by 7A749; 01-09-2016 at 12:46 PM.Expert Garage Hack....https://www.facebook.com/steven.webber.948
Reply:OK folks, I generally don't aim to start a ***t storm with my posts. When I do reply and particularly with regard to specifics of applying settings to perform work, I also like to include logic and reasoning for doing so, hence the content of my first post. I will often "think out loud" when I type things out and that can further confuse an issue. Apparently I did "misinterpret" the context of this thread and include off-topic comments. I will try to stick to the questions/topics, as I don't intend to have a pissing match with anyone, that will not accomplish anything for anyone regardless of personal feelings. Best regards, AllanaevaldNo worries Allan. You're one of the last guys I view as a pot stirrer.I just wanted to make sure everyone understood the purpose of the thread. I know once things start to unravel, it can get out of control pretty fast.Expert Garage Hack....https://www.facebook.com/steven.webber.948
Reply:Yeah,Photos would be good. But a video demo would really be great. You know, maybe just some bead-on-plate with a typical wave form and settings, and then showing the amplitude control being changed, and then some more bead-on-plate, with no other changes. Then a little commentary...I mean, as of right now, I've only noticed one video on YouTube that touches on the amplitude control topic with only the briefest demo and commentary. And if I recall, it mentions increased travel speed as a benefit, maybe also smaller tungsten size.Have you guys seen it? It's got a guy named Chris Razor in it.It seems to be about all there is out there as a visual demonstration of amplitude control, but without any actual parameters, theory, or machine adjustment comparison effects included.
Reply:Don't have wave or wave amp control,but much interested in how/ why results.Oscar your techno gets me to reread your posts and clears up some of my dope slapsLast edited by rick9345; 01-09-2016 at 11:22 PM.Everlast 250EXMiller 250 SyncrowaveSharp LMV Vertical MillTakisawa TSL-800-D LatheGrob 18 in BandsawGreenlee cut off sawSanford surface grinderDeckel style Tool cutter grinderand 40+ yrs of etc,etc
Reply:First we had triangle wave welders with Mag-amp control.Then came the SCR square wave. with advanced wave form we now can pick a basic wave form and then Change frequency and the zero point and balance. All in attempt  to give us the best puddle control they can think up.
Reply:I needed this post real bad.Since I started to figure out what my Inverter would do, I have been quite overwhelmed with understanding how I can have a En % of say 70 and an Ep % at 50,which is more than 100%.without coming across as completely stupid, I don't ask the questions,I have many.I am struggling with the percentages of the En and Ep and how they relate to the balance setting,like having a balance of 60% but En at 70%, and Ep at 50%?
Reply:Are you using an Invertig 221? If yes, the percentages are based on what you set for max amps. So for easy numbers, if you have your machine ser at 100 amps, en for 70%, and ep for 50%, and then you floor the pedal, you would be at 70 amps en and 50 amps ep. It's not additive.Last edited by zank; 03-06-2016 at 11:01 AM.Mike ZanconatoZanconato Custom Cycles @mzank on Instagram
Reply:As a follow up, I would make it easy on yourself and leave one setting at 100% and then adjust the other to a lower percentage. I think that is more intuitive. For instance, you may want to try to lower your ep to reduce the heat into your tungsten. Leave the EN at 100% and lower your EP to 80%.Mike ZanconatoZanconato Custom Cycles @mzank on Instagram
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleHow do you figure? If your wave looks like this, it's spending more "time" on one side vs the other side
Reply:Originally Posted by InsanerideI dont do much aluminum and dont have fancy waveform adjustments but this is just wrong. The horizontal part of wave is time and it looks to be the same time for the positive part of wave as the negative. I just had to clear that up.I do have balance control and usually keep it on the side that saves tungsten and turn it up only if the aluminum is really dirty.
Reply:Originally Posted by nmaineronI needed this post real bad.Since I started to figure out what my Inverter would do, I have been quite overwhelmed with understanding how I can have a En % of say 70 and an Ep % at 50,which is more than 100%.without coming across as completely stupid, I don't ask the questions,I have many.I am struggling with the percentages of the En and Ep and how they relate to the balance setting,like having a balance of 60% but En at 70%, and Ep at 50%?
Reply:I understand what you all are talking about, but pictures and setting will tell me a lot more. Or do I just have to play with it and see for my self what it does? www.georgesplasmacuttershop.comPlasma Cutter and Welder Sales and Repairs--Ebay storeTec.Mo. Dealer Consumables for the PT and IPT torch's
Reply:Originally Posted by mechanic416I understand what you all are talking about, but pictures and setting will tell me a lot more. Or do I just have to play with it and see for my self what it does?
Reply:Ok, I see. Bye.www.georgesplasmacuttershop.comPlasma Cutter and Welder Sales and Repairs--Ebay storeTec.Mo. Dealer Consumables for the PT and IPT torch's
Reply:nmaineron, hopefully these crude diagrams will help your understanding of some of this stuff.Of course it is not realistic to depict each an every single possible combination of AC balance together with independent amplitude changes.  With three degrees of freedom, there are a multitude of combinations that are attainable.Last edited by 7A749; 03-06-2016 at 11:48 PM. 1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig! HTP Invertig 400HTP Invertig 221HTP ProPulse 300HTP ProPulse 200 x2HTP ProPulse 220MTSHTP Inverarc 200TLP HTP Microcut 875SC
Reply:And then along comes pulse, and I can't even remember my phone number.Nice informative diagram "Oscar".Last edited by rick9345; 03-06-2016 at 04:15 PM.Everlast 250EXMiller 250 SyncrowaveSharp LMV Vertical MillTakisawa TSL-800-D LatheGrob 18 in BandsawGreenlee cut off sawSanford surface grinderDeckel style Tool cutter grinderand 40+ yrs of etc,etc
Reply:Thanks Oscar!That's an excellent basic presentation.Blackbird
Reply:Originally Posted by 7A749Ok, guess I'll have to clarify what this thread is forIT IS FOR SHARING FEATURES AND CHARACTERISTICS OF WAVE SHAPE AND AMPLITUDE SETTINGS USED ON ADVANCED INVERTER TIGS!!!!In example: What an individual user has used, tried or experimented with and its related outcome... Basically a thread where ppl can share and exchange ideas regarding machine setup with others so all can benefit from it..IT WAS NOT CREATED TO ARGUE THEORY, DEFINITIONS AND OPINIONS. IT SURE AS HELL WAS NOT CREATED TO BECOME A DICK SWINGING CONTEST EITHER.ANY FURTHER POSTS REVERTING TO SUCH WILL BE REMOVED.THANKS