Mig like Tig

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This thread is about making MIG look TIG,  or really nice looking mig welds. I am going to try something.  ONLY POST IF YOU HAVE A PICTURE OF YOUR OWN WORK.  The point is we want to SEE your attempt.I am going to try to master this too.Here is my picture.  It aint like ZTfabs, but it was about 200 feet of weld.WFS 330 of .035, about 20 volts C/25. This is 3/16" square tubing so there is a natural perfect fit up. I should have been at around 200 amps.Horizontal, making circles going up on the forward stroke.  First pass on clean bare steal, second pass down through the puddle.  I turn the heat WAY UP to do this.   200 amps on 3/16" horizontal groove.Here is a link to another threadhttp://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...hlight=mig+tigNothing discussed here but Mig welds.David edit:  Mig gun was held straight in the joint.Last edited by David R; 05-26-2009 at 05:56 PM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:i have never tried to tig weld i was wanting to know if it is at all harder than stick, i need to know cause works gettin scarace and i may have to go singel hand and they say combo pays better
Reply:harder shmarder, its different. its like oa welding, heat in one hand to make the puddle, and filler in the other to feed it. in ways its easier than stick ,  cause thers no slag to block yer view, you see the molten metal and its up to you to make sure it goes where it should.
Reply:I was welding bucket teeth on using a forward whip and bare wire.Mig welds that look like tig welds or attempts at it.David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Just curious, is this a new fashion thing or is their some good technical reason to make MIG look like TIG??
Reply:Take a look here and see what started this.http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=30507Along with other threads about the same thing.This is a trial thread.  David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Here is an image that I got out of my welders manual. It shows that dragging is a real method which was challenged in another thread.Also a meager attempt of getting the tig weld look on some crappy rusty steel. There is a photo of the welds and a photo of the inside of the box.I did not have good steel to try it on but will try to get something better soon.Bob Attached Images
Reply:I'm glad you started this thread David. I've been wanting to try doing this and just needed a reason. Lincoln 100 HD with .030" NR-211-MP on some 1 1/4" X 1/8" angle iron. I didn't hold it at the end quite long enough but it ain't too bad after about 5 minutes of playing around. The dime is partially covering a tack, I ran a few beads on the other side before trying this one.I may re-post this one so you guys can critique it without hijacking this thread.David Clevinger Engraving
Reply:Here was my attempt on 3/8 plate to 5/8 roundbar. I used a lincoln weld pak and .035 lincoln innershield nr211mp wire. This was a table mount for my sander.Shane Attached ImagesYa gotta spend money to make money!
Reply:Originally Posted by GerryRJust curious, is this a new fashion thing or is their some good technical reason to make MIG look like TIG??
Reply:Here's a couple of my attempts at it.These were some prototype brackets, .125" CRS. This is a truss that I made for a 9" differential housing: I cut the truss from 2"x3"x.125" tubing.And here is the "box" from the previous thread. It is actually a cover for an old rooftop hatch that was de-commissioned. .125" CRS.http://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:Originally Posted by ZTFabHere's a couple of my attempts at it.
Reply:Here's a few more....125" and .188" CRS.These are both open corner joints like the "box". THere is a small piece with a lap joint on the .188" as well.http://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:My first attempts were more like "MIG like MIG".I cut 8 coupons of 1/8" CRS and tacked them to give myself open groove joints.This was also my first try at pulling the torch, I usually push.Each coupon was welded in 2 steps, from the corner to the center tack, left to right, with changes in WFS and voltage made on each half. You can see the reference marks: 1A/1B,2A/2B, etc.Basic settings: Lincoln PM300 in GMAW (#5) mode....no pulse..035" ER70-692/8 Ar/Co2Coupons tacked but needing cleaned. The "Spot" feature is cool! .5sec duration.Coupon 1: A side,  150 WFS / 20 volts Too Hot!!....B side,  150 WFS / 17.5 volts.Coupon 2: A side,  140 WFS / 17.5 volts....B side,  140 WFS / 16 volts....still hot.Coupon 3: A side,  130 WFS / 16 volts....B side,  130 WFS / 15 volts....unstable arc @ 15volts, 16 seems mo' better.Coupon 4: A side,  120 WFS / 16 volts....B side,  110 WFS / 16 volts.Coupon 4A seems to be the best of the lot, from a WFS/Volts standpoint. I think my technique of making the "e" is too slow. Like, I'm not taking the horizontal move far enough to the right before I curve back around counter clockwise.I spent about 1/2 an hour doing "dry runs" with the machine turned off so as to get a feel for the drag/"e" technique. The 400 amp gun is definitely NOT the one for this!Comments and pointers will be appreciated!Rex
Reply:No fair!  I think Paul should be excluded from this "attempt" Michael Jordan: "Just put this ball through that loop?  Sure, I'll try it"
Reply:Amps or heat is the wire speed.Volts are the bead width.  You can see that in  your cupons.I would try 120 to 130 ipm with about 17 -18 volts.  To your own taste of course.....If you look at cupon 3, A side you are close, but there is too much weld or wire.you could also try straight in and push.I like the attempts, looks like you are on your way!More  pleaseDavid Last edited by David R; 05-27-2009 at 07:20 PM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Here are a few sample T joints that I ran quite a while ago. Attached Images
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Reply:It is a small part, but that is all I have in here right now.  I honestly can't remember if I pushed or pulled this one.  I push/pull based on which side I am coming from and what I can do to get comfortable.  I can also weld with either hand so right to left or left to right doesn't bother me.For a comparison, here is a small tig weld I did recently.Jamie WebbWelder & InspectorBusiness and HobbyLincoln Pro-Mig 180 with Spool Gun and Lincoln AC225
Reply:Originally Posted by DanHere are a few sample T joints that I ran quite a while ago.
Reply:I hate guys that weld like that  It's beautiful work, you make us all proud...I know you've listed it before, but ZT could you give your parameters again? I've got an itch to give it a go too. Hat's off to all those that showed up on this!  Thanksmaniak
Reply:That axle truss is art.   Just realised, referencing another thread,  GOOD ART.   didn't want any mistakes here.past work toys; lathes,mills, drills, saws,  robots, lasers ironworker, shears, brake, press, grinders, tensile tester,  torches, tigs, migs, sticks, platten table, positioner,  plasmas , gleeble and spot. Retired June 30, 2009.
Reply:Originally Posted by wesdavidsonThat axle truss is art.   Just realised, referencing another thread,  GOOD ART.   didn't want any mistakes here.
Reply:Originally Posted by maniakI hate guys that weld like that  It's beautiful work, you make us all proud...I know you've listed it before, but ZT could you give your parameters again? I've got an itch to give it a go too. Hat's off to all those that showed up on this!  Thanksmaniak
Reply:I wouldn't want my mig welds to look like tig. Clean and consistant, yes! But not like tig, it ain't natural. The best from my days leading up to certifying.Lincoln V350 Pro @ 18.~plus volts and LN-7 wire feeder @ 225-ish? ipm.Here are some tig beads from cyberspace...yeah, I can do that!  Attached ImagesCity of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDannyZFabMy wife hates it when I call here in to look at something on the compter. She really liked your work on the axel housing. I'm greeeeeeeeeeeeen with enzy.
Reply:Thanks Reebs.Here's a pic of a scrap piece of tubing that I welded to some .125" plate. The tube is 1.75"x.120" DOM mild steel.I used my Lincoln PowerMIG with .030" ER70S-6, C25 gas @ 15cfh.http://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:You are amazing!
Reply:Originally Posted by rode2rouenMy first attempts were more like "MIG like MIG".I cut 8 coupons of 1/8" CRS and tacked them to give myself open groove joints.Basic settings: Lincoln PM300 in GMAW (#5) mode....no pulse..035" ER70-692/8 Ar/Co2Coupon 1: A side,  150 WFS / 20 volts Too Hot!!....B side,  150 WFS / 17.5 volts.Coupon 2: A side,  140 WFS / 17.5 volts....B side,  140 WFS / 16 volts....still hot.Coupon 3: A side,  130 WFS / 16 volts....B side,  130 WFS / 15 volts....unstable arc @ 15volts, 16 seems mo' better.Coupon 4: A side,  120 WFS / 16 volts....B side,  110 WFS / 16 volts.Comments and pointers will be appreciated!Rex
Reply:Jason,   Thanks for the compliments and thank you for stating the things that definitely need to be addressed.I have said the same thing for years as this technique does draw criticism as well as admiration. There are basics of welding that must be established and perfected before aesthetic techniques can be applied. The technique(s) that I use can provide very sound welds but, as you stated, in the hands of an inexperienced weldor can yield detrimental results. For those who don't know, Jason (Black Wolf) is a very accomplished and skilled weldor and has many years experience. He speaks the truth and has the skill set to back it up.http://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:OK, I 'll throw in my $.02.  Its just a looks thing and obviously some are really good at it.  This thread was started because of another thread was going well then got way off track.  I started a new one. NOWHERE does it or I say all mig welds should look like this.  There is a lot of interest in making mig welds as pretty as ZTfab does, so I am trying to let the information out.I just weld.  Some come out looking better than others.  The pic of my welds posted earlier are of just jobs.  I was not trying to make em look any different.   I have said it many times. " I don't need no stinkin dimes"   I saw an interest and started the thread.   I have also said if you want it to look like TIG, then get out the TIG torch and have at it.This thread is here to let the information flow.David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I have to chime in here. I have been welding for about 9 years now and have ALWAYS ran my GMAW welds in a "push" fashion with the exception of flux core or dual shield wire, in which case I use the drag method for obvious reasons.  I am certified in both hard wire stainless MIG and dual shield steel for structural welding. But in no way am I saying I am an excellent weldor. I have seen some "certified" weldors make some welds that just plain scare the living daylights out of me,Anyway the point of all this nonsense is to say that I am not a "newbie" to this welding process as I can make some MIG welds like the best of them.  But ever since I have been welding I have ALWAYS been taught to tilt the gun in the direction of travel and always PUSH hard wire and never ever drag it (unless flux core or dual shield is being used). I have been told that pulling doesn't get quite the penetration and the tie in at the toe of the welds like dual shield and flux core do. So in NO way am I discrediting ZTFab or anyone using this method. Its very apparent that his welds are both beautiful to the eye and to the aspects of a proper weldment. Im begining to wonder, have I been mislead this entire time? Can you make a pull weld as strong as a push weld? I would tend to think not as the preheating of the push method would aid in penetration but maybe Im wrong because of the way I have been taught. Im asking because I want to expand my welding knowledge as there is no such thing as knowing too much. Especially if it has to do with my job and how I put food on the table. Thanks!Last edited by JDWeld; 05-31-2009 at 08:14 PM.
Reply:JDWeld, I disagree.  Pull gets more penetration than push.  Look in the books.    Pull (backhand) is for a deeper narrowed bead and push is the opposite.  Both can be done with mig depending on the situation.  I may have to do a test.....**************************************************  **************************************************  *******Copied from here http://www.esabna.com/EUWeb/MIG_handbook/592mig7_8.htmTorch position has a slightly greater effect than does welding voltage or arc travel speed. The effect of changing the longitudinal torch angle, or switching from a forehand to backhand welding technique is shown in Figure 7-10. It can be seen that generally the forehand welding technique yields shallower penetration than does the backhand technique. Maximum weld penetration is achieved with a torch angle of 25 deg. and the backhand welding technique. However, beyond this degree of torch angle, arc instability and spatter will increase. For very thin materials or where low penetration is required, a forehand technique is generally used.**************************************************  **************************************************  *********I am not saying you are doing it wrong. I use both methods.  I have a 3G Mig unlimited thickness cert.  I used push to take the (vertical up)  test........A test would be fine with me in another thread.  I will participate. Black wolf, I Use a V350 with the advanced panel.  OMGWHATAMACHINE!David Last edited by David R; 05-31-2009 at 08:28 PM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:In regards to the push/pull issue only this gif at the bottom is borrowed from Miller and Hobart. Supoorting info is as follows.http://www.hobartwelders.com/elearning/#mighttp://www.millerwelds.com/resources...tips/MIG_tips/Or:"When using the GMAW process on light gauge material,weld from right to left (if you are right handed).This results in a colder weld and has less tendency forburn through." From;  http://content.lincolnelectric.com/p...im/LTW1TRI.pdfAlso:http://www.millerwelds.com/pdf/mig_handbook.pdfAndhttp://www.hobartwelders.com/elearni...lding_Tips.pdfPerhaps this post belongs in another thread as well. Don't wish to detract from this thread. Attached ImagesLast edited by Sandy; 05-31-2009 at 09:00 PM.
Reply:David R. I too would be willing to try both on a different machine(s) and a few different thickness for the sake of educational purposes. We have an old work horse Pow-Con and Miller 251's in the shop. This is a real eye opener to me. All these years I have been taught wrong by people I would consider some of the best welders I have ever met. (and I have met alot of them) To anyone else feel free to do the same thing and post your findings. Pictures would be great. But we will start this in another thread so we can get back to topic in this thread. Thanks David R, ZTFab and everyone else. I look forward to our own findings and results.
Reply:Originally Posted by Black WolfAfternoon Rex,You asked for pointers, so I will give you some...
Reply:Please stay out Willy Mac.To all other members here, please to feed the animals as they wont ever leave afterwards.Miller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.
Reply:It seems we were invaded by a member posting false information.  The posts were deleted and all posts related to it.  The member is in the penalty box....David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Thanks for getting that handled David.Here are some more sample pieces that I did in the shop tonight....BUT, I did these with a different technique to show that my normal methods are not the only way to weld. I appreciate all of the positive comments about my welding, however my techniques are definitely not the only way to get things done.This is .188" CRS and set as an open corner joint. .030" ER70S-6 wire, C25 gas on my Lincoln PowerMIG 200.The last pic is an inside corner joint. These are a little rough since I don't really ever use this technique.http://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:ZTFabWeldingWeb CraftsmanMan, that is an understatement for sure.  WeldingWeb Artist would be more accurate.Gordie -- "I believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Reply:Well Paul, no matter what you do, you sure got a steady hand. I am usually too low or too high or upside down or something and I just can't get that steady. I doubt I could be that steady on a small piece on the welding table let alone on real jobs.Great work.
Reply:Originally Posted by NiteskyZTFabWeldingWeb CraftsmanMan, that is an understatement for sure.  WeldingWeb Artist would be more accurate.
Reply:ZTfab, what wire speed and volts?  come on spill it!Nice looking stuff.David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Sorry....details, details, It was at voltage tap "C" and wire speed was at 325 on the dial.This was on my Lincoln PowerMIG 200.http://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:Since David asked for pictures, I took one and decided to join the conversation. I spent all day today with short-arc mig.  Took three pics with my cell phone while on my lunch break, one of those pics didn't end up blurry.  When I'm laying down a bead I'm not trying to achieve a psudo-tig appearance.  I am oscillating the puddle for two reasons;  first is to ensure that both toes are tied in by getting the arc out on each leg.  Second is because I find it very difficult to make a weld with consistent size and profile if I'm not oscillating, counting each oscillation to maintain a rhythm.  The oscillation pattern I used for the weld in the picture was ovals, or oval like loops.  Joint is a flare bevel, welded with a drag angle.  Elsewhere on the part are welds I made downhill in the same joint configuration have a different appearance (flatter and smoother), as position dictated a different technique. Attached ImagesLast edited by Static-XJ; 06-02-2009 at 09:39 PM.
Reply:hey , guys , while we're on the subject, how close do the rest of you follow the reccomendations for wfs & amps on the "door settings" of you're machines. i always struggle trying to find the "sweet spot" on all my machines. dont get me wrong , the welds look good and , i've never had any real problems with the strength of the welds, but they in no way look anywhere near as good as say a "ZT weld". not trying to hijack the thread, just thought it may be on topic. if not , just say & i'll start another thread . thanks
Reply:The first thing I do is take that sticker and peel it off!! Not really but I might as well. For example the last weld that I posted was done on .188" CRS and the settings were tap voltage "C" and 325 WFS.....the "recommended" setting on the door sticker for that is voltage tap "F" and 350 WFS.Will that recommended setting work? I'm sure that it could if I wanted to weld while I was running. I run a slow hand speed and tend to slow everything down accordingly.There are definitely parameters for welding that should be followed but I still believe that almost every person will need different settings depending on technique, comfort, and experience.I would suggest that you use the settings on the door as a loose guideline and the fine tune them for your hand speed and comfort while making sure you are laying down a proper weld.Last edited by ZTFab; 06-03-2009 at 11:29 PM.http://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:I have relatively little mig welding experience and lots of tig. I would like to make some points about tig that might change your views of the asthetics of certain welds. The reason most tig welds have that ridged, "stacked dimes" look is because it's easier. You stop the advancment and then the filler, thats what makes the ridges. To make a perfectly smooth and correct weld is really hard. you would almost need a machine to feed the filler metal for you, sound familiar? The look can be achevied several different ways, and if the apperance is important (it's almost always important to a tig welder's pride), a good welder will make sure to take their time to make a good weld, and hopefully the apperance takes care of itself.
Reply:So i tried the "e" patternMine:the left side was my 1st attempt the right i turned up the wire speed a shade.I'm really sorry... but you guys are so awesome i had to try.Here learning to turn down the Suck...
Reply:Originally Posted by ZTFabAny weld in particular? I posted a couple of different ones and they would obviously have different settings.