Inquiring about what's involved in getting this cert. I don't know anything about old steam trains but we have a local volunteer group that has 5 or 6 engines and several cars. When they are restoring or repairing the boilers they currently have to be shipped to Ohio to a shop there and it gets pricey. The kids and grandkids have always enjoyed going on the rides they give and thought if it's not to pricey I might be able to help them out. Anyone know what spec I would have to cert too ? Also, how would this affect my insurance from the liability standpoint. Would it fall into a little category all to it's own ?Enlpck, I noticed you mentioned boiler repair in the ship thread. Have you gotten any info that might be helpful in my quest for correct answers ? Anyone with knowledge of this small and dieing area of welding would be appreciated. There wouldn't be any money involved other than materials so if it's more than a few hundred I'll probably pass, would like to find out though.Anything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT
Reply:I work as a full time Power Engineer or simply put boiler operator. I don't have my books here but will have a look to see what the spec's are. I think here all you need is a high pressure all position cert. The other part is you will need a proper writen proceedure for the welding jobs.Miller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.
Reply:There are a few options for the rules, and which apply depend on the oversight agency for the boiler (FRA for much rail equipment, coast guard for many ships, private agencies such as ABS, or the default of the state or local jurisdiction), but here are a few guidelines.Background:FRA has their own rules that pretty much follow the National Board rules for repair and inspection, with a few differences (see 49CFR230). Most states in the US follow the guidelines of, or are 'members of' (simple way to say it well enough), the National Board, and I believe that all now have some sort of boiler and pressure vessel regulation that applies for commercial applications, as do most (all?) provinces in Canada. The private agencies are authorized by the jurisdiction to provide oversight and inspection for boilers and pressure vessel repair work, as well as periodic inspection to maintain operating licence, and generally their inspectors hold National Board Commissions.Repair work may be done, in most jurisdictions, only by companies authorized to do so by an accepted authorizing agency, which, in practice, means the NBIC or the state/province. An NBIC authorization ('R' stamp) covers all jurisdictions that subscribe, and a state authorization (often called a 'state R' or 'jurisdictional R', which isn't quite right in most cases) covers only work done in that jurisdiction. Work done in another jurisdiction under a jurisdictional authorization may not be accepted by another jurisdiction (so, if I ship a boiler from California to New Jersey to have work done by a NJ authorized shop that doesn't have a National Board stamp, California may not accept the work at all, may require a full review of the work, or may be fine with it, at their option).There are a bunch of other authorizations (S or new construction, U for unfired, V for safety valves and related, and a bunch of others, some of which are ASME or other, not Nat. B'd)How to get the authorization:I have worked with several National Board 'R' shops (both R-1 and R-2: R-1 is repair in kind only, R-2 allows alterations), doing the work, planning work, doing engineering evaluation, and writing/revising the manuals. This is the nature of a small shop, which the majority are: people need to be involved in all aspects. The key is your book (the Quality Control Manual). The requirements are outlined in the NBIC (new version coming out soon. Not cheap, by the way, nor are the other books you need), but it starts with what work you will do and the standard to which you will work (for example, you may say 'Work will be performed in conformance to the 2011 ASME standard' or something similar.) It will include inspection, technique, an organization chart of personnel, job descriptions and responsibilities for each job, procedures for keeping track of the work, procedure for rectification of non-conformities with procedure, and several other things. It must also include samples of all of the forms that will be used to document and control the work. The manual is not always a large document: A simple book may have about 12 to 18 sections, each maybe one page, maybe 4 or 5. A complex one for a large repair firm, like Henckles and McCoy (I haven't seen their book, so I can talk about it in the 'probably' sense, without giving away confidential information) might be pretty substantial, as they work to a LOT of different standards, and are a huge organization (not bad for guy's that started in a pickup with chainsaw and a ladder). These books are proprietary, controlled issue, and may be considered trade secrets. I would guess that most QC manuals are smaller rather than larger, as most holders of stamps are smaller organizations with fairly well delineated scopes of competency.(continued to next post)
Reply:Starting the process is fairly straightforward: find out the rules you need to work under and follow them. One of those 'Sounds simple' things, but a lot of people skip it and burn themselves. It is a small industry. If you mess up at this stage, you will lose any hope of getting a decent rep and no one will want to help at the next step, and you WILL need help. You don't have to know everything (lord know I don't), but you need to know the basic outline and know what questions to ask, especially when someone is telling you to ask them the question. Next, you want to get in touch with both the oversight agency or agencies-- they will be your best friend or wost enemy-- and start looking for a private insurance firm to cover the work. They will provide an AI to do the inspections for them, and the jurisdiction may or may not also inspect. In a National Board state, the AI will likely be on good terms with the state agency and they will accept his (almost all men in the field) work unquestioned. If they don't know the AI, or have reason not to be confident in the work, they may watch more closely. The company that provides the AI for (and insures) the work may or may not have any affiliation with the company that inspects and insures the boiler for operation. It is tough to get insurance for older/historic vessels at this point, and many of the companies are leaving that part of the business (notably, Hartford, the one that made the industry), thanks to a couple of truly stupid individuals.Your AI will cost money. It isn't cheap. Read the contract very, very carefully. This is where it helps a lot to have a person that has experience in the field and is known to the inspectors. A little respect goes a long way.(continued to next post)
Reply:I'll start following the track for a National Board stamp, now, as I am most familiar here. The FRA is a bit looser in some ways (OK, a lot looser sometimes, in what work they will allow without any formal authorization or certification), but going National Board is a better way to cover ones butt.Now you have a manual, you have an AI, you have contact with the jurisdiction (state generally) that applies, you contact the National Board. They are really, really nice people to work with, but you need your duck in a row. They won't tell you what to do. That isn't their job. You might start by certifying welders. Use pre-approved procedures from AWS. It is a lot cheaper and easier than qualifying your own procedure. You will likely need to send weld coupons out for testing, or may need to send the welder to a testing site, unless you have a person qualified and acceptable to the AI to inspect the coupons. Discuss this with the AI. Easiest way (and, honestly, the best way with low carbon steel) is to test mechanical properties. A guided bend test does this, and a tester can be purchased or built (diagrams of the business end with dimensions are in ASME Sec IX), and doesn't need any calibration. At this point, you are following your manual. You will need to do a demonstration project, show that you can follow the manual as to material control, purchasing, etc, and do all of the paperwork correctly.You will put in an application and schedule (in conjunction with your AI and jurisdiction) a review. This can be another several thousand dollars, but is usually less than ten thousand. Prior to the review, you need to have your system and controls in place, be able to demonstrate them (purchasing, job log, demonstration of work, welder certification, etc). I don't know of any reviewers that bust ba11s for fun, but they take it VERY seriously, and if any of the committee sees something to give a question, they will not hesitate to hammer it. People die when the work isn't done right, and, usually, the primary verification that it is done right is the paper trail. Even an X-ray doesn't prove a weld is good. It just shows that certain kinds of imperfections aren't evident. If you pass, you get the proper documentation to show it, and may do work as authorized and delineated in your manual. If not, then you will be told what you need to rectify to pass, or you will, in essence, be told to go away, there is no hope at this time. (continued next post)
Reply:Your best bet for a start is find someone in the industry that has an interest in helping to get started. The process, start to finish, can be as short as a half year or so (if someone experienced is available to write the book and lead the way), or a lot longer. Note that, even if the FRA is the oversight agency, they like to see the work done right, and like to see the work done by a competent shop (they are not lax, but a lot of the expertise has historically been in the RR shops. These days, this has eroded, and that has been demonstrated a couple times-- Gettysburg, for example. Also some of the good shops have yahoos in them). A lot of things that used to be considered routine mechanical repair not needing inspection is beginning to come into scope. Things like replacing a threaded stay, replacing tubes, piping, etc, are being inspected, and may need to be done by an authorized shop, even though they were left to the owner of the boiler (RR shop for a railroad, plant personnel in industry, etc) in the past. Even if jurisdiction doesn't require it, the insurer may refuse to insure for operation if the work isn't done to their standard.As to where to look for expertise, you might try getting involved in the local AWS, contact the nearest Boilermaker hall (some of the older guys know everybody in the industry and have held pretty much every job from pimp to job super for a 5000 man job), etc. If you really have an interest in more information and some help, PM me, and we can chat on the phone... As I said above, expertise is around, but I need to know more about the circumstance, and there may be things not appropriate for a public forum.
Reply:First of all, THANKS for sharing your knowledge and the effort it took to pass it along !! It seems it is undoubtedly an expensive undertaking. I now understand why this little group pays to have the work done rather than having a competent welder certified on the grounds. This is not one of those ; test to a standard, have an inspector lay out how to do a repair and call him back to inspect the repair type functions. This volunteer bunch just restores old steamers to run on their own 2 1/2 -3 mile track at the fairgrounds to keep the history alive. As stated, they have 5 - 6 engines and they acquire and restore cars they can get for decent prices or donated, they have several from old westerns and some from TV shows...nice little operation. It grew out of an "Old Threshers Annual Reunion" 30 - 40 years ago to what they have now. I used to take the kids for their Halloween or Christmas rides. Now it's the grandkids turn. I printed this all out but it really looks cost prohibitive to be doing on a volunteer basis as I don't see much if any other actual work coming from it. I was high pressure fluid control valve certified to boilermaker standards for about 10 years. So I am vaguely familiar with some of the procedures involved and the critical degree that the work entails. I spoke with one of the conductors this past summer and he said something about some people dieing from a train boiler explosion in '05 I think. Was that in Ohio ? I'll gingerly look into it but at this point, with this knowledge, I doubt anything will come of it unfortunately. I think the expense would be far greater than I'd be willing to "give back" for the pleasure the kids drew from the volunteers efforts.But a BIG THANK YOU for your's !!Anything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT
Reply:The Medina, OH incident was bad, but not the first, and not what started the changes in the rules. Medina was an example of what can happen when there are no rules (the boiler was exempted) or when people choose to ignore the rules and practices established over the last 150+ years of high pressure boiler manufacture and operation. The report would almost be funny if people hadn't been injured and killed.There have been other incidents, but the one that got the ball rolling was Gettysburg, PA (http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/1996/SIR9605.pdf) in 1995. This on was a comedy of incompetence (see the executive summery, page V of the report)As to cost effectiveness, that depends on the available skill and experience set. The recurring cost is moderate (several thousand dollars a year administrative), but the saving over time may be worthwhile. I can't evaluate or make a recommendation without more information, and maybe not then.No, it isn't something you could do for them yourself. It is something that you could lead for them if they want to finance their own effort. The key thing is the people and the commitment.
Reply:WOW...that was quite a read !! Looks like complete negligence to me on the part of the second generation. About like the mindset that as long as the key starts the car it must be alright. You're right...that incident sure did cause a bunch of new rules to be recommended. Too bad some people have to be forced to do things the right way.As for my thoughts on helping them...at least for now, I'll just continue to drop some bills in the donation boxes. The administrative portion is enough to scare me away and don't think they'd pony up that kind of money either.Again, THANKS for your help !!Anything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT
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lddad I have that certification its under ( preasure vessel ) in the aws bookI will dig up the number for you , when I took the test it was for 3/8 wall tig root with 7018 cover and 1/16 over lap , , when done it was x-rayed and distructive tested , bent and streched .
Reply:Nice play by play thread..Thanks guys!...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:These aren't cast iron boilers are they?
Reply:Originally Posted by boilermakerolddad I have that certification its under ( preasure vessel ) in the aws bookI will dig up the number for you , when I took the test it was for 3/8 wall tig root with 7018 cover and 1/16 over lap , , when done it was x-rayed and distructive tested , bent and streched .
