Thin Metal TIG welder
Tue, 31 Aug 2021 15:37:11 GMT
I'm a gunsmith by trade, I'm not a TIG welder at all. Currently all my welding needs are met by either outsourcing the work or lighting the oxy/acet torch. The problem is I'm tired of taking simple work to others and delaying my own work. I'm also trying to avoid the need for heat treating parts when I fire up the torch. So I'm looking to buy a TIG.My shop has a 100A service, I need the ability to weld Stainless, alloys, raw steel, and aluminum. Just about the absolute thickest material I EVER will have to weld is 1/8" AL. And even at that it wouldn't have to be a single pass. I also need to be able to weld material that's .030" thick preferably a bit thinner. Price, ideally as inexpensive as possible but get the job done, currently my budget is $2000. But honestly, if it can't be done for less than $4000, then I'll just be saving for longer. The more money I save the more I can put into other tooling, gunsmiths are always buying tooling. I was looking heavily at the Miller Diversion 165 however it's rated range is 10 amps min. Is this saying the welder will not maintain an arc lower than 10 amps or does this just mean it can only be set down to 10 amps and you could feather the power lower with the foot pedal?And how thin can you weld with 10 amps? I know what the welder is rated at but I have no idea how honest those ratings are. Thank you for any advice you can give me. I'm good at what I do, but I also know when it's time to seek help and this is certainly one of those times.
Reply:My Dynasty200DX is the knat's azz. It goes down to 3 amps, and even then I can kick in the High speed pulse to weaken the arc even further.Diversions, as much as I like them, don't have the pulse feature. I find the pulse VERY useful on small parts.On Alum I have several waves to choose to weld beer cans up to 5/8 thick plate in small section. There is no better style machine for a gunsmith Than the Dynasty200DX. It is very simple to learn, and on this board you will have lots of help.Where are you located? If you are close, you are welcome to take mine for a spin.Last edited by shovelon; 02-05-2013 at 12:59 PM.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:I'd have to agree the Dynasty is about as good as you can get.You may find that getting good enough at tig, especially on thin materials and alum will take you quite a bit of time under the hood. It will be a bit less if you truly do OA welding vs just brazing though. You might want to think about taking a night class at a local tech school or Community college to learn the basics. Tig give you the most control, but because of this there are a lot of little details you have to control to get good results. You need to have a lot better control over these variables the thinner the material gets. Don't expect to simply buy a machine and be doing thin materials in a few hours. Expect to need at least a couple hundred to be doing stuff in the .030 and thinner range, especially with alum. Most new tig students at the tech school can do basic beads on flat plate and maybe lap and T joints in the flat position on 1/8" steel in the 48 hrs of one semester where I help out at. Outside corners and but joints, plus the other positions horizontal. vertical and overhead, usually takes at least another 2-3 semesters. Then they are ready to start on thinner material like 1/16" ( .0625) and do it all over again.You can often find yourself a nice lightly used Syncrowave 200 used in the $1000-1500 range. It won't give you as much control as the Dynasty, but it would give you an excellent learning machine that would probably do the majority of the stuff you need to do. Chances are when you are ready to upgrade to a Dynasty, you can sell it for pretty much what you paid for it used and have if for "free" to learn on. If you eliminate the alum form your requirements for now, a nice used Maxstar 150 or 200 would give you almost the same stuff the Dynasty will, depending on the model you get. Again if you find a nice used machine, chances are you'll end up getting most of what you paid for it back when you want to upgrade..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by KavallI was looking heavily at the Miller Diversion 165 however it's rated range is 10 amps min. Is this saying the welder will not maintain an arc lower than 10 amps or does this just mean it can only be set down to 10 amps and you could feather the power lower with the foot pedal?
Reply:I do and am completely comfortable torch welding, I also realize I'll have a learning curve, I'm not opposed to having one. I also don't expect to be welding on AL cans the first day on the machine, heck I don't expect to have that kind of skill in the first year. However I want a machine I can add small amounts of metal to parts rather than replace them. I want to be able to hold my heat effected zone to an absolute min. I figured the Dynasty 200DX was the ideal, but can I achieve my goals with a lesser machine or should I just plan on spending more money? I'm pretty set on the inverter machines due to my limited power availability.
Reply:Originally Posted by KavallI do and am completely comfortable torch welding, I also realize I'll have a learning curve, I'm not opposed to having one. I also don't expect to be welding on AL cans the first day on the machine, heck I don't expect to have that kind of skill in the first year. However I want a machine I can add small amounts of metal to parts rather than replace them. I want to be able to hold my heat effected zone to an absolute min. I figured the Dynasty 200DX was the ideal, but can I achieve my goals with a lesser machine or should I just plan on spending more money? I'm pretty set on the inverter machines due to my limited power availability.
Reply:http://www.scottgrossstore.com/servl...-Welder/DetailThis is the older 185Rock solid machineEd Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:The problem with the TA185 is the AC current only goes down to 10Amps and my understanding is that's too hot for some of the work I want to be able to do. If I am incorrect in that belief I would love to be corrected!! It would save me $1500-2000. At this point from your advice I think I'll be scouring for a used Dynasty 200DX unless someone points out that 10A is plenty low enough to weld .030" steel. Or that the 10A spec doesn't consider the foot pedal and you can throttle it back further via pedal. I'm repeating myself at this point but just trying to avoid confusion. It's my understanding the (low) amperage range of these machines listed in the specs is actually saying what's the lowest point it will start an arc and hold it.
Reply:I primarily weld 0.024 - 0.044" thick steel and stainless tubing and I really like my Lincoln Squarewave TIG 175. I've also been welding some 0.049 and 0.063" wall aluminum tubing and it does a nice job. Not like my buddy's Dynasty, but you can also find the TIG 175 used for less than a grand pretty regularly. But if you have the dough to spend, by all means get the Dynasty. It's up there on my list of wants too.
Reply:10 amps on the low end is plenty low to weld 0.030" steel. I generally set my machine at 60 amps and then use the pedal. Mine only goes down to 12 amps and that can weld the bottom of soda cans without blowing holes.
Reply:Good luck getting into a decent Dynasty for $2000
Reply:Certainly the Dynasty is a great welder.You might keep your eye out for a used Syncrowave 200, which I believe would also meet your needs. Typically under $1500 used. It has pulse, which I think is helpful for thin material. If you decide later to get a Dynasty, you can probably sell it for what you paid for it.RichardSculptures in copper and other metalshttp://www.fergusonsculpture.comSyncrowave 200 Millermatic 211Readywelder spoolgunHypertherm 600 plasma cutterThermal Arc GMS300 Victor OA torchHomemade Blacksmith propane forge
Reply:Originally Posted by KelvinGood luck getting into a decent Dynasty for $2000
Reply:Originally Posted by KavallAnd my sentence right after that one in my first post was "But honestly, if it can't be done for less than $4000, then I'll just be saving for longer"Zank was the first person to comment on Amperage needed for thin metals. If he's pulling off welding soda cans at >12 amps. I should be able to get away with using a TIG that bottoms out at 10amps like one of the TAs or possibly a Diversion (kinda bent towards Miller for some reason)
Reply:With a gunsmith working on parts which likely have very tight tolerances and heat management being a primary concern, would the Diversion still be a good idea?NickESAB CaddyTig 2200iPowermax 45MM140 (Sold)
Reply:Originally Posted by KavallAnd my sentence right after that one in my first post was "But honestly, if it can't be done for less than $4000, then I'll just be saving for longer"Zank was the first person to comment on Amperage needed for thin metals. If he's pulling off welding soda cans at >12 amps. I should be able to get away with using a TIG that bottoms out at 10amps like one of the TAs or possibly a Diversion (kinda bent towards Miller for some reason)
Reply:Originally Posted by zank10 amps on the low end is plenty low to weld 0.030" steel. I generally set my machine at 60 amps and then use the pedal. Mine only goes down to 12 amps and that can weld the bottom of soda cans without blowing holes.
Reply:I have a CK130 (9 series) torch, and run 3/32" 2% lanthanated tungsten, a small gas lens, #7 cup, and between 15-20 CFH.
Reply:Originally Posted by zankI have a CK130 (9 series) torch, and run 3/32" 2% lanthanated tungsten, a small gas lens, #7 cup, and between 15-20 CFH.
Reply:No doubt. It's just a tool. But I'd be lying if I said I didn't wish for a Dynasty, especially as I'm doing more aluminum. And I can't wait to really spend some time with high speed pulse.
Reply:Originally Posted by SnuffyWith a gunsmith working on parts which likely have very tight tolerances and heat management being a primary concern, would the Diversion still be a good idea?
Reply:Originally Posted by KelvinThen why not just get a used Syncrowave? Mine goes down to 5A, though I have no idea why anyone would ever want to go that low.Do you weld a lot of soda cans in gunsmithing?
Reply:Originally Posted by KavallI don't want to get a syncrowave because the biggest outlet I could wire it for is around 60 amps. And putting a machine on a circuit that it has the ability to overload isn't desirable to me at all. The inverters look to need around a 40 amp circuit and they have full capabilities. Plus most of what I've read seems to point towards inverter machines are easier to weld on due to their better arc control. The pluses = easier to weld on, won't overload a circuit, smaller in size.Minus = more money (I'd rather save for a bit longer and own a better fit than get something NOW)Do I weld a lot of soda cans, no, I don't foresee me welding anything thinner than .020" which is almost three times soda can thickness. But I'm not nor will I ever be a master TIG welder. However the things I do weld on can't be screwed up, burning a hole through a .020" part could ruin it beyond reasonable repair. So if a machine I'm looking at can stitch a soda can together in an experts hands, I'm reasonably confident with enough practice I can not ruin a part three times that thickness. Tight tolerances are not an issue, any tolerances blown out can be adjusted with file or machine work. That's to be expected. Shoot, we've oxy/acet welded everything for years and years. Heat management is ABSOLUTELY a primary concern, it's the number one benefit to TIG over torch in gunsmithing. If I can keep my heat affected zone small enough many times I won't have to deal with reheat treating a part. This is a HUGE plus. As for if the Diversion will allow me to do that effectively, that's pretty much exactly why I posted. A third repeat of the original question in different wording is, you've got an idea of what I'm doing, will a lower priced, inverter style, machine than a Miller Dynasty 200dx achieve those goals? If so what one? Currently it seems that the Diversions can, however the Dynasty does it better and I should keep an eye out for one just in case someone's selling one off quick.
Reply:I run my Syncrowave 200 on a 50 amp circuit, and have never tripped it. Others suggest a 60 amp circuit. You will not pull that much power unless you have it turned up all the way, which you will not need with thin material.Remember that the rule of thumb is the TIG welding amp setting are equal to the thickness in thousands of an inch, so 0.030 inch thick material calls for about 30 amps, more or less, which pretty much any TIG welder would deliver, and still let you reduce it down with the foot pedal.RichardSculptures in copper and other metalshttp://www.fergusonsculpture.comSyncrowave 200 Millermatic 211Readywelder spoolgunHypertherm 600 plasma cutterThermal Arc GMS300 Victor OA torchHomemade Blacksmith propane forge
Reply:Consider this problem solved, just scored a Dynasty 200dx on craigslist for 3300. Yeah, it's more than 2000. But it comes with two helmets, gas bottle, tungstens, gas cups, some filler rod, and I'm not even sure what other "small parts". I'll be picking it up in about an hour! Sometimes things happen fast.Originally Posted by rafergusonI run my Syncrowave 200 on a 50 amp circuit, and have never tripped it. Others suggest a 60 amp circuit. You will not pull that much power unless you have it turned up all the way, which you will not need with thin material.
Reply:Originally Posted by KavallConsider this problem solved, just scored a Dynasty 200dx on craigslist for 3300. Yeah, it's more than 2000. But it comes with two helmets, gas bottle, tungstens, gas cups, some filler rod, and I'm not even sure what other "small parts". I'll be picking it up in about an hour! Sometimes things happen fast.
Reply:Originally Posted by KavallConsider this problem solved, just scored a Dynasty 200dx on craigslist for 3300. Yeah, it's more than 2000. But it comes with two helmets, gas bottle, tungstens, gas cups, some filler rod, and I'm not even sure what other "small parts". I'll be picking it up in about an hour! Sometimes things happen fast.
Reply:It has multiple waveform options, sine, soft square, square, that sort of thing. With all the extras I thought it was a fair price. It's supposed to have 9 hours on the machine. I haven't remotely looked into if there's a built in hour meter on it or even how to check how many hours. From it's exertior appearance I would say 9 hours looks about right. There's more marks from handling and moving than from use. The control face and buttons are PRISTINE.
Reply:Originally Posted by Drf255It may be too late, but make sure it has Blue Lighning. If it has adjustable AC waveform, it has BL.Not a bad price if it's a clean machine I guess. Still sounds a bit high though, unless it's almost new. I got a Watercooled Tigrunner under warranty for $3500 with two tanks and some said I paid a bit too much.The great part is that you are done. You have the best machine out there from a company with THE BEST customer service bar none. The machine should give you very long service.
Reply:Suhweet! Buying used is a great idea....the depreciation has already happened. You will be able to sell it again for what you paid, even a few years down the road.
Reply:If you really wanna know what the dynasty 200 DX can do, here is no sh$t, 2 pieces of tin foil i welded together!
Reply:Originally Posted by KavallIt has multiple waveform options, sine, soft square, square, that sort of thing. With all the extras I thought it was a fair price. It's supposed to have 9 hours on the machine. I haven't remotely looked into if there's a built in hour meter on it or even how to check how many hours. From it's exertior appearance I would say 9 hours looks about right. There's more marks from handling and moving than from use. The control face and buttons are PRISTINE.
Reply:Originally Posted by usmcruzIf you really wanna know what the dynasty 200 DX can do, here is no sh$t, 2 pieces of tin foil i welded together!
Reply:Originally Posted by usmcruzIf you really wanna know what the dynasty 200 DX can do, here is no sh$t, 2 pieces of tin foil i welded together!
Reply:Originally Posted by ScubaSteveWeld it into a cone and ferment something....LOL!
Reply:Originally Posted by KavallIt has multiple waveform options, sine, soft square, square, that sort of thing. With all the extras I thought it was a fair price. It's supposed to have 9 hours on the machine. I haven't remotely looked into if there's a built in hour meter on it or even how to check how many hours. From it's exertior appearance I would say 9 hours looks about right. There's more marks from handling and moving than from use. The control face and buttons are PRISTINE.
Reply:I've looked it up and it's a 2005 machine. I also finally got it wired for power. It has 1690 arc starts on it for 7hours and 5min. It's in prestine shape otherwise. I'm a little bummed about it's age and lack of blue lightning, but eh, it will likely be a LONG time before I'm good enough to care. The scratches on the stickers on the side are so minor I'm certainly not worried about that. Thanks for the offer for the decal though.
Reply:If you go on the Miller website forum, one of the first sticky posts is "Dynasty Setup". In the giant thread, someone goes over how to set the machine up to start arcs as well as blue lightning. There's a way to do it, Miller just made it easier with BL. I believe you have to change parameters with each size of tungsten change. Ive also heard that touching the tungsten to the work and raising before you hit the pedal in HF mode helps with starts. I believe that was with the pre-BL 350's, but it may apply to the 200's as well.The lack of adjustable AC wave is pretty useless unless you are gonna be a super pro or weld tinfoil together (which looks cool but is useless). I've seen Zap here weld tinfoil with an old Miller AB/P 330. So if you build up enough skill, you could do anything with your machine.You paid a bit high, but that's water under the bridge. You've got a solid machine there. I'm not sure if people could falsify the amount of machine use by replacing something in the machine, ie having the main board replaced after it failed and finding out the counter went to zero.I miss mine. I only got rid of it because of an a$$kicking deal I found on CL for my TA300.Last edited by Drf255; 02-11-2013 at 05:05 AM.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
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