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Requesting help with aluminum TIG


Tue, 31 Aug 2021 15:28:16 GMT
Hello all,I have been TIG welding aluminum for many  years now.  Strangely I have never MIG welded it but that's another story.Here in Phoenix I have broken into a niche market welding aluminum for auto body and mechanical repair shops.  Since Phoenix is a center for auto auctions there is much activity buying and selling cars that are running or cars that are sold as salvage by the insurance companiesThe body and repair shops that buy them many times discover that during a particular wreck an engine or transmission is damaged and can be repaired by welding.  Since finding out about my service, they have been able to salvage damaged engines and transmissions (many times in position) and reduce their expense of having to pull the part, locate a replacement and reinstall it.Slowly I have been building a client base of shops that call me for such repairs and in general I have no problem with them with the exception of situations where the weld is tight and I have no space to get my TIG torch into a place to perform the repair.Such a situation happened to me on this last job and while the repair is strong enough for  salvaging the transmission and putting it back into service, it was not 100% because I could not get into every location to lay down a bead.  I would like to request help from my welding brothers (and sisters) who have already crossed the bridge and could pass on to me how best to tackle this type of situation.Attached are a few pictures of the job in question and I highlighted the areas where I could not get in to position.  As it was even on the other such spots I had difficulty laying down a bead with the tungsten sticking way out as it was, but am getting the hang of TIG welding in non-standard, out of position situations.  Still, I'm sure that there are tricks of the trade that I am not familiar with.For this repair I used a water cooled torch with a gas lens (therefore a somewhat wide cup) and cranked my argon up to around 40 or so when getting into the tight spots where I had to stick the tungsten way out there.  You can tell by the soot generated by my efforts.  As a whole though, I was able to get about 95% of the breaks.I brushed and scraped the metal shiny with a SS wire brush on an angle grinder and small hand brush in addition to brushing it with a small diameter abrasive wheel used for scraping paint mounted on a drill.  Between these all I was able to get into the small spots and clean prior to welding.  I put a bevel on the heavier sections.  I also pre-heated prior to welding to get it up to temperature and let the welding process keep it hot.I would really appreciate learning new techniques for this type of situation.  Maintenance welding is an art form in itself and many welders that are good welders and fabricators fall on their faces when repairing partly because they are not challenged to overcome the hurdles that repairs many times put in front of us (like welding at odd angles, etc.).  Others because they don't understand the dynamics of metal and how to use fish plates, heat, etc.  I used to work in the steel mills in Chicago (going straight from the ship yards in the Bay Area) as a repair welder and until I had that job I never appreciated (nor realized) all the methods that could be done to perform repairs on both tiny and huge items like sheet metal to overhead cranes carriages.  I have to admit, I love the trade.Thanks for your kind responses.Tony Attached ImagesLast edited by therrera; 03-30-2011 at 01:46 AM.Reason: added a few more pictures
ReplyRequesting help with aluminum TIGooks to me like you could have ground out the housing from the outside and penetrated into those areas. You could use a smaller cup, helium, and DCEN to get into tight places as well.Two turn tables and a microphone.
Reply:Maybe try a pencil torch? I've got an old Miller 90-degree pencil torch with a flexible neck, it's saved my *** a hundred times by now. You could also try wicking some Aladdin 3-in-1 (or Durafix, or HTS-2000, they're all the same) into the cracks you can't get to with your TIG torch.
Reply:Hi Pangea,thanks for your input.  Could you explain that please?  Ground the case from the outside?  The helium, I understand as do the straight polarity and smaller cup.  However, the questions are:1) I have never welded with helium but have read that it gives a hotter arc and deeper penetration.  Does it provide better arc control as well?  Since I do this type of work repeatedly, would you recommend that I keep a bottle of helium handy for tight work?  Are there any other considerations that need to be taken into account when welding with helium (type of tungsten, cup sizes, types, etc.)?2) In using a smaller cup, can the tungsten still be stuck out as with a larger one?  The cup size was only one factor in limiting my ability to get into the tight spaces.  The angle I had to use was a factor too because to get into them I had to tip the torch way over at steep angles where the arc could stay lit and focused only by sticking it way out and cranking the pedal down.  I think I had it out about 3/4", maybe more, in some spots.  I used a 3/32 tungsten.  Should I switch out the gas lens for tight work?  I don't think gas lenses have small cups, I may be mistaken. My water cooled torch came with a gas lens and is why I use it.Thanks for the help,Tony
ReplyRequesting help with aluminum TIGo you use a gas lens? You can use a much larger stick out with it even with the cup in the way.
Reply:therrera,Don't know how to say this "tactfully", but I think we've got bigger problems here than just "being able to get the torch in".First off, 40 CFH is way too much flow for such a confined area.In your first photo (#29) there is a major crack (just to the right of the repair) that was not even addressed.Joint prep was poor to non-existant.  Those cracks needed to be V'd out.  For that I would have used a die grinder with a carbide burr.  Without proper prep, all you did was lay a non-penetrating bead on the surface of the casting.  You say 95% done.  I cannot agree.  I would suspect that the repair has less than 25% of the strength of the original casting.I also have to question the amount of heat used to complete these welds.  You mentioned that you used a 3/32" tungsten.  Generally speaking, in AC welding, a 3/32" tungsten would have a hard time carrying the amps needed for that thickness aluminum.Pangea and BC are the "resident experts" on the use of DC- and high purity helium.  This is a case where the repair would have definitely benefited from the use of that process.  If this is a "regular type repair" for you, I would strongly suggest you develop the skills for that process.Additional tungsten "stickout" should allow you to perform the welds I see.  A gas lens will allow you to "go to that extreme".  A micro torch will not carry the amps you need to do an effective repair on this heavy aluminum.  There's a lot of mass there that needs to be overcome.Overall, I think you got too obsessed with "the welding" and not focused enough on the "prep".  My experience says that I generally will spend 75% of the time in getting a part ready to weld and only 25% of the time actually welding.There's a lot you didn't tell us about this repair. What machine, what amps, what freq, etc etc so all we have to go on are the photos of the "finished product".  I would not have been happy with what I see.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:I would agree with Pangea on advice here.My neighbor gets lots of aluminum cases, but I don't remember any broken at the transfer case/output area. Anyway he often will open a large hole and work from the inside out. I remember him working with 1st gen Northstar blocks where he would actually cut the broken piece apart and weld it in, one part then the other. Other than the one outside fillet your weld looks pretty good.As for the gas lense, from time to time I get more than an inch stick-out in deep cracks with a #7 or #8 cup. I'll turn the flow to 12-16cfh and make sure I'm in very still air. If anything I would imagine you would have a bit more trouble cooling the tungsten since you're doing AC here. If so just size the tungsten up.Good luck, again for a casting repair that looks pretty good.Matt
Reply:My advice after looking at what you have already done would be like Pangea said is to get your die grinder with a carbide bur (wide fluted)  and v out the finned areas inside the housing, and die grind a v across your weld on the outside deep enough to get close to 100 % pen......then weld it up (I would use 4043 ) use your regular flow setting 15 cfm should be fine with maybe a Blueshield 1  mix  75/25 argon heliumnot really necessary but will give you a little more heat  for your application....Curious as to how that part of the case broke?Last edited by B_C; 03-30-2011 at 01:26 PM.  Miller Dynasty 350Twenty Six HammersThree Crow BarsBig Rock
Reply:Hello all,I really appreciate the feedback, even the negative aspects of my repair.  I am sending some shots of how the cup fit into the areas to be welded as they still haven't picked up the tranny.The shots show the cup I used (gas lens) and the stick out and the condition of my tungsten in the process and the other shots are of an extended cup and how it fit into the  areas.I have never welded with the small, long cups before and have to ask if in your opinions, this cup would have been the right one to use for these tight joints?  It seems that with it I wouldn't need stick out beyond normal length (1/4" or so).I didn't show shots of the entire prep work but unseen is that I beveled all along the outside of the crack where I was able to get a better bead and control, especially at the ends of the broken piece where it was thickest.  I ground a bevel almost to a point..  My strategy was to bevel the outside, fill it in and then have the inside bead meet up with the outside bead and seal the crack entirely.  This is for the most part what happened except for those areas where I highlighted that I couldn't get into.As for the webs.  I debated beveling them as I was afraid that I might not be able to get a decent bead in there so my plan was to weld both sides of the break and have the beads meet and seal.  I use this method when welding aluminum rims.  They usually crack crosswise to the rim flange where the tire bead seals.  You can grind them out only so much on one side (due to the curve in the rim) and after I weld the beveled side, I run my heat up so that the crack fuses into the opposite side's bead making a full penetration weld.The web on this case are 5/32" thick and I used the same technique to fuse the two haves together except there was no beveling involved, it wasn't needed, although with more control I would have done the repair with a bevel as suggested, using hind sight.I am not happy with the final bead as I know it looks rough.  But all of you know, the appearance of the bead is not an indication of how good the actual weld is.  This repair is probably the most difficult I have had to tackle with aluminum and I really would like to master this type of repair as I fully intend to get into it further and market myself more to more shops out there.So far I have done about two dozen cases and engine blocks and have had none break or otherwise come back to me.  Me early ones have been in service for over two years.  So I am confident of my skill level in taking these projects on but I realize that there is much to learn and why I am asking my peers.How would you have done this repair if it was brought to you?  I realize the limitation of the gas lens although I like how it welds.  Could I have used the small cup with an 1/8" tungsten?  Would you have preferred to use an 1/8" tungsten or is 3/32" a good choice.For the record, I cranked it up to 40 only in those areas where I saw no choice but to really put the tungsten out there.  My logic was that it would shoot gas and envelop the area to protect the weld zone adequately.  The feedback seems to be to leave it at normal pressure (15 or so).  That's what I usually weld at.  Does it help to raise the pressure like that or am I wasting gas?As for helium.  Is the consensus that I should invest in an argon/helium mix to have on hand for these type of repairs or to use them in general and replace my straight argon bottle?Sorry to ask so many questions, but this is the closest I can come to having a helping hand that can help guide me and learn.  The closest I had to that was when I was breaking into the maintenance welding field in the Chicago steel mills when I would be paired up with an old timer who would teach me their tricks.  It was great.Can someone tell me what causes the tungsten to split?  Is it overheating, lack of shielding?  I am posting another reply showing how the long, thin cup fits into the weld area to get your opinions if that is the way to have gone and to go for future such repairs.Thanks,Tony Attached Images
Reply:Hello again,here are shots of how the thin, long cup fit into the weld area.  Those of you who have had to do this type of repair, would you have done it using this type of cup and not the gas lens?  Can they be used with a 1/8" tungsten?  I always thought they were for 3/32" or smaller.Shown also is the machine I used, a Hobart TR250HF 300 amp ac/cd welder with a high frequency built in.  I set it at maximum (300 amps) and set the current control at about 2/3rds.  The foot control does the rest.  What settings would I use if I went with DC straight polarity?  Would I use straight and helium or helium/argon mix?  I have never attempted to weld aluminum using straight polarity, how does it behave, etc.  What thicknesses is straight polarity best at? What do you think?ThanksTony Attached Images
Reply:I'm not a big fan of the "wine bottle" nozzles but if you must use them I recommend turning your shielding gas down abit. The long nozzles paired with high gas flow can create turbulence and cause porosity/contaminated welds. One more thing I do when making a repair like this is to cut some of that webbing out of my way and if I feel it's necessary for the webbing after the repair is done then replace what you just cut out by building up beads til you get just below flush of the surrounding surface. If it's critical I build past flush and mill off the excess in my vertical mill. If I were in your shoes I wouldn't venture into dc- aluminum tig just yet but would consider getting a 75/25 argon/helium mix.Jmo
Reply:Hi Showdog75,I think you're right.  It didn't even occur to me to cut the webbing out of the way.  That would have made a big difference as I would have had a clear shot at the main break on the bottom, fused it well and with more control and then turned my attention to piecing the web back together.  This was mentioned in an earlier reply also.I will practice welding with this small cup to see how it welds.  Maybe the gas lens for the main repair on the bottom of the break and the smaller "wine bottle" nozzle for the webbing.  I just called my welding supply shop and found out the cost of the helium/argon mix and it's not a super big difference.Does the higher cost even out since the helium/argon mix burns hotter, does that mean I can get as much or more welding bead out of the same volume of gas?Shown in the picture is a repair I did in position that turned out well.  Before this one, that was the hardest I had attempted.  Boy, everything is relative, isn't it?Hi SundownIII,  the crack on the right of the main break was at a bolt hole.  It didn't run the whole length of the case, only part of the bolt hole so I sealed it from the top and am suggesting  to the repair shop that if the bolt does not grab tight, to drill out the hole one size larger and re-thread it to compensate for the stretched hole.  I went out and took a shot of it and it is included here.Thanks,Tony Attached Images
Reply:Every time I have welded flanges like this, especially with the webbing, I have gotten significant warping of the aluminum piece.  Is there some machining done after the welding is finished, or have you managed to get it done without warpage?Miller Syncrowave 350Millermatic 252/ 30A spoolgunMiller Bobcat 225g w/ 3545 spoolgunLincoln PowerArc4000Lincoln 175 Mig  Lincoln 135 Mig Everlast 250EX TigCentury ac/dc 230 amp stickVictor O/AHypertherm 1000 plasma
Reply:Hello DougAustinTX,I ran a straight edge over the part after the welding and it stayed true.  I tacked it all around prior to welding it out  and had it clamped while doing the tacking and the initial heavy welds on the ends and the back side.  Then I removed the clamps and did the inside crank and flanges.  So far I have been lucky with the cases and engine blocks I've welded.  I even welded an aluminum motorcycle engine head that had an ovaled out exhaust stud.  I was afraid it would warp and told the mechanic to check it out prior to assembly but it did not warp.  What can I say?  I haven't yet had that happen to me.How about your opinion on whether or not I should have used the long cup instead of stick out on the gas lens?  Any thoughts on that?Thanks,Tony
Reply:I normally use a gas lens with a wide mouth and would not hesitate to use a long stickout.  I don't even own any of those long snout cups.  The lens is designed to give a better flow pattern over a larger area than just the regular cup, so I agree with the idea of not turning the gas up any higher than normal, as long as you don't have a breeze going across the work.  Glad to hear you aren't getting warpage.  I didn't see you answer the question about what was breaking all these castings.Miller Syncrowave 350Millermatic 252/ 30A spoolgunMiller Bobcat 225g w/ 3545 spoolgunLincoln PowerArc4000Lincoln 175 Mig  Lincoln 135 Mig Everlast 250EX TigCentury ac/dc 230 amp stickVictor O/AHypertherm 1000 plasma
Reply:How about the tungsten size? should I have done this with a 1/8" instead of a 3/32"?  How far would you be willing to stick out the tungsten with the gas lens?  I think I may have had an inch out there at the most hardest point to reach.  However, the whole job would have gone different had I thought to cut out the ribs as was suggested before.  I'll keep that in mind next time I'm faced with this type of situation.This tranny damage was the result of a car wreck.  Remember at the start of my post I mentioned that Phoenix is a car auction center.  Car haulers from all over the country pass through here picking up cars.  Body shops buy them up and restore them from salvage wrecks.I usually get called in when during the course of the restoration work, they discover damage to aluminum parts as a result of an accident.  I think it is a good niche market and want to get good at it as many welders in my area that offer field service don't do aluminum.  All I know is that a shop that calls me regularly brought this one to me.  It was already out of the car.I've had to seal holes in engine blocks, repair broken brackets on engines and transmissions, repair cracks in aluminum oil pans both engine and transmission, etc.  It has been quite an experience having to learn how to deal with bad castings that are oil soaked or full of impurities, etc.  The last picture is of four broken out mounting points for a transmission that I successfully built up so the mechanic could drill and tap new holes.  I couldn't post the "after" as I ran out of attachments.  It came out good though.I suggest that others who are able to weld aluminum, market their services specifically to body and auto repair shops for their aluminum welding needs.  You might be surprised that you will pick up work that otherwise would go undone as shop owners or managers don't necessarily think that welding may salvage that aluminum part they might otherwise need to replace.When I first started my service some years back I emphasized metal work and repair in general to these shops.  Then as a result of being called in by a body shop to repair an aluminum engine block it occurred to me that this may be a niche and I specifically made up a flyer advertising aluminum tranny and engine block repair showing pictures of the first set of repairs below.  Then the work started coming in a little bit at a time.  The same shop that told me they do their own welding at first would call me because they couldn't do aluminum.In summary from yours and other views:1) stick with the gas lens cup to allow for stick out.  How much stick out can I get max do you think?  Also, stick with 3/32" tungsten?2) Go with a helium/argon mixture instead of straight argon.  Would you agree with this?3) Cut the webbing out of the way, repair the bottom unhindered and then piece it back together.  Agree with this one?4) bevel the stiffeners with a rotary file or burr to insure full penetration.Attached is an example of a simple repair and a more complex one that are typical of the breaks I get involving cases.Thanks for your thoughts,Tony Attached Images
Reply:I'd use WeldTec's Champagne Nozzle.  With increased gas flow, you can easily use 2" stickout.Dynasty 300DXSmith He/Ar gas mixerMM350PHobart Handler 120Smith LW7, MW5, AW1A
Reply:Originally Posted by therreraIn summary from yours and other views:1) stick with the gas lens cup to allow for stick out.  How much stick out can I get max do you think?  Also, stick with 3/32" tungsten?2) Go with a helium/argon mixture instead of straight argon.  Would you agree with this?3) Cut the webbing out of the way, repair the bottom unhindered and then piece it back together.  Agree with this one?4) bevel the stiffeners with a rotary file or burr to insure full penetration.Attached is an example of a simple repair and a more complex one that are typical of the breaks I get involving cases.Tony
ReplyRequesting help with aluminum TIGon't mix the helium and argon.  Use straight ultra pure helium all by itself and weld it like you would weld steel. You wont see a puddle form, more like a slight shift in the surface.  That's when you start stabbing that filler wire into it. Cut windows in those webs but don't go crazy with it because when you build them back up you will get some shrinkage and that equals warpage.Two turn tables and a microphone.
Reply:Hello all,thanks for all your input and ideas.  My most difficult part of this repair was not being able to get into the joint.  Stick out seems to be key here and I liked the idea of the Champagne cup and looked into it.  The kit goes for around $37, a reasonable investment that should pay me back many times over.I consider myself a good welder although I am always learning and like the idea of being able to consult with my peers.  I wish we had some type of welder "user group" here locally where we could come together and exchange ideas, tips, techniques, have demos and the like.  There are all kinds of them in the computer software trade.  I joined a Linux user group and they have stuff like this all the time every month.I just left a message on the AWS board to see when their meeting are.  Although my experience is that these meetings are primarily places to discuss technology and processes where welding equipment manufacturers make presentations, etc.  They are more aimed at the business and production end of the trade.  I have only been to about three meetings over the past 30 years or so, so I might be out of touch now.Thanks again to everyone who took the time to give me their thoughts and ideas.Tony
Reply:Originally Posted by therreraHello all,My most difficult part of this repair was not being able to get into the joint.  Stick out seems to be key here and I liked the idea of the Champagne cup and looked into it.  The kit goes for around $37, a reasonable investment that should pay me back many times over.Tony
Reply:therrera..Do you have the front cover to your machine?If not I have one you can have for free.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Hi Zapster,sorry I didn't get back to you on this.  I do have the front cover.  I just took it off when I was servicing the machine and didn't bother putting it back on.Thanks,Tony
Reply:Can someone tell me what causes the tungsten to split?Using 2% Thoriated  on AC  with your machine will do that.......different story for inverters from what I'm told?  Miller Dynasty 350Twenty Six HammersThree Crow BarsBig Rock
Reply:Thanks for that info.  Mystery solved!!Tony

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