I finally picked up my oxygen and acetylene today and lit my torch for the first time. It's a Prest-o-lite W-200 torch outfit and I did a little write up on it here...http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=76821Yes! I bought the torch over a year and a half ago....Yikes. I have a 125cft oxygen and a 145cft acetylene. I didn't have much stuff to practice on today. I had some old 26 gauge stove pipe that I ground clean, some cheap plated angle, and some 1/8" 304 stainless flatbar. Also, some stainless nuts and allthread, etc... The torch seems to have a nice flame and I'll get some pictures this weekend and update my other post. I don't have any pictures of the 26 gauge. My smallest tip for the torch is for 1/32" steel. I thought it would be about right but I was blowing holes through it fast. I couldn't move fast enough to weld it properly. I did get a couple of spots about 1/2" long of weld, but mostly holes. I had some cheap 1/16" plated angle bracket. I ground off the plating and tried that. Here's the result...Here's the back of it..I also tried a butt weld on my 1/8" stainless. I used 316 tig filler wire. (Afterward, I welded another piece to it, sorry if it looks confusing). The bead doesn't seem too bad, I used the #9 tip which is rated to 1/8" steel. (My union carbide handbook says to go down a size or two for stainless). Here's the butt weld...Here's the backside. No penetration through to the bottom. I did leave a slight gap. Here's a cross section through that weld. It looks like the penetration is about 1/3 of the way into the 1/8" flatbar. I didn't use a flux and will be getting some. I did use a reducing flame with an acetylene feather about 2x the inner cone. The cobra torch guys say to use a reducing flame. The oxy/acetylene handbook I have says to use a neutral flame with a flux, which I plan to try.It did seem like the stainless was having contamination problems. The beginning of the weld was fine but as it really heated up it started to pop and get holes in it. Hopefully, flux will fix that? more pictures to come...
Reply:...some more pictures.. Here is what I mean with the contamination. This was just two pieces of 1/8" stainless laying together at an angle and I started fusion welding. The puddle moved nicely and everything flowed well, then it started popping and making holes. As it heated up I would expect to have to move a little faster but it also seemed to pop a lot and it's more crusty looking. Here's another small butt weld..Here's the backside ( I welded both sides) with a big crater at the end. That was strange. Finally, at the end of the session, I took two pieces of 1/4" stainless allthread scrap and welded them. I tacked each end and then welded it. That seemed to weld nicely. I plan on getting some 1/16" and 1/8" steel and practicing. Thanks for looking. All advice and tips welcome.I don't know how you guys do these big pictures posts, these two took me almost 40 minutes!!Last edited by villageboatshop; 08-01-2013 at 11:40 PM.Reason: spelling
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earn to walk before you run. Master the welding of mild steel before adding the technical aspects of stainless. Neutral to JOF flame and flux is the way to go for stainless. Also limit the torch movement to better utilize the shielding envelope of the flame.
Reply:Oxy welding is where it's at. I agree with the above post. Get your mild steel down before venturing into stainless. The first pictures look like a keyhole weld attempt. With a bit more practice you'll get it down in no time. A steady hand helps. Recognize the sound of the neutral flame. It will help you to set it up in the future.
Reply:What is "JOF"?"USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:Originally Posted by OldendumWhat is "JOF"?
Reply:JOF= Just Off Feather, meaning there there is just a slight telltale of a secondary cone which serves as a visual cue that the flame has not gone oxidizing.
Reply:Ok, so I did some more practicing with the gas welding. I'm looking forward to the comments on these pictures... First is a butt weld in 1/16" mild steel. Filler is RG45. Here's the backside..I also welded some utility blades to see if I could. I blobbed on the filler as you can see because it would burn through fast. I think I need a smaller tip size for something like that. I clamped them against some angle iron. I also welded a piece of tube to the 1/16th sheet. Tube is 1/16", 3/4" dia. Finally, yesterday I welded a miter in this 3/4 x 3/4 x 1/8" angle to see how that would go as I want to use angle for a table and some shop projects.. Oh yeah, I'm leaving out pictures of the many strips of 1/16" I've welded together. It's like a patchwork quilt that just keeps growing in 3D as well as it now has some tubing sticking off of it.. Good practice though. I've gone about 1/4 way though the gas bottles. I probably have about 6-7 hours of torch time. Thanks for looking, let me know what you think..
Reply:Tip size is a big deal, and the weld changes, obviously as you round a corner as in your last picture. With gas, a little undercut is a lot harder to avoid than with mig, in my experience. Gas welding is kind of a live animal, and you have nowhere near the control over your equipment that you would with a decent mig machine or a tig setup.Those last welds look damned good. If you've only got 6 or 7 hours of gas time and you rounded that square tube corner as well as you did, you got no worries.Said square tube.. make that angle. My apologies.If you fight long enough, you will win. The problem is it costs too damned much.- Lee Cheng
Reply:Originally Posted by bellflowerTip size is a big deal, and the weld changes, obviously as you round a corner as in your last picture. With gas, a little undercut is a lot harder to avoid than with mig, in my experience. Gas welding is kind of a live animal, and you have nowhere near the control over your equipment that you would with a decent mig machine or a tig setup..
Reply:A keyhole weld is a when two pieces have a gap between them. As apose to butted up next to each other. So the keyhole weld fills the gap while joining the pieces together. At the end of the weld it looks like an old keyhole.
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860 Here is a test....1/16 flat sheet tee joint with a gap of 1/16. Fillet weld one side only, and try to form a smooth fillet on the backside as well. No back purging........
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860I would argue this. With skill the O/F method gives you more control over your weld puddle than any other method.....even tig. I say this because there is no electical path, you are in complete control of where the heat is going.
Reply:Ok, I tried the T joint. Hopefully I set it up correctly. I don't think I got the desired results. Here's the setup. I spaced it using little pieces of RG45Tacked it up..Here's the weld..Here's the backside..So, to me the weld seemed decent. There wasn't any type of reinforcement on the backside though. It seemed as though I should have a fillet on the backside if I read what you wrote correctly. Do you have pictures of a good version of this? That would be helpful to see.
Reply:I might as well show this too. I did a little project for the house. Our lame flag holder droops like crazy and a good wind and rain always makes it hang down pretty good. I used 1/16" sheet and 1/16" 3/4" tube..Decent side of weld..Another shot of weld ( I am not showing the bad side with the blow through hole and big build up patch which I'm getting pretty good at filling)Painted and installed...
Reply:O/A welding sucks. Unless you're doing it as a hobby, I would highly suggest mig or stick welding instead. O/A Is soooooo sloooooooooow. It just blows.Lincoln Power Mig 216Lincoln AC/DC-225/125Miller 625 X-Treme PlasmaMiller 211 Forney 95FI-A 301HF 91110Victor Journeyman O/PMilwaukee DaytonMakita Baileigh NRA Life Member
Reply:Originally Posted by SuperArcO/A welding sucks. Unless you're doing it as a hobby, I would highly suggest mig or stick welding instead. O/A Is soooooo sloooooooooow. It just blows.
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860Depends what you are working on, and your skill level. Making aluminum fuel tanks out of material .063" and under, its ideal. Aluminum body work is the same. Light steel tubing (under .090") it is also ideal, and fast. This explains why it is still so popular in general aviation circles. I do agree though that for heavier material, it is slow, and I will use electic welding for that.
Reply:Originally Posted by SuperArcO/A welding sucks. Unless you're doing it as a hobby, I would highly suggest mig or stick welding instead. O/A Is soooooo sloooooooooow. It just blows.
Reply:Originally Posted by SuperArcPlus the OP is "new" to the "sport" and I don't think he's going to be welding any .063" thick sized aluminum fuel tanks in the near future. .
Reply:Great to learn the basics with OA though. Still really useful for silver brazing, preheating, and flame bending and forging. All in all, that flag holder look pretty good. Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonGreat to learn the basics with OA though. Still really useful for silver brazing, preheating, and flame bending and forging. All in all, that flag holder look pretty good.
Reply:Originally Posted by SuperArcPlus the OP is "new" to the "sport" and I don't think he's going to be welding any .063" thick sized aluminum fuel tanks in the near future. I'll agree with you that its great for thin stuff, in particular jewelry. However, I think TIG has surpassed 0/A welding in the aviation manufacturing industry, probably a dozen times more over.
Reply:I got a little more practice in. I'll need to get some more steel to practice on as I'm running out of material. Here's a butt weld I did yesterday morning. It feels like a bit of an improvement from the first one. I was using a size 4 tip. I usually blow a hole at the end of the weld. I guess I need to pick up the pace as I get to the end. Here's the backside. This one had the penetrationSilicon Bronze is one of the metals I use a lot in my shop. If I just try to fuse two pieces together, they get all crusty with no fusion. I have some borax at home so I brought some in. I put a little heat to the screws, then sprinkled borax on them and they flowed and fused together nicely. Pretty cool. I'll have to get some silicon bronze filler and practice this.
Reply:Silicon bronze filler works great if you're filling silicon bronze and need an invisible joint. If not, typical low fuming brazing rods are nearly identical but are easier to work with when joining metals or building metal fill. Borax based flux powders really help, and are much more necessary for silicon bronze.I would hazard to guess if I was in the "Boat Building" business, I would want an Oxy/Acet torch set available for the exact same reasons you bought yours for.Keep it up!I think what you are doing is awesome!
Reply:Hi, many years ago I wanted to get an oxy/acc set-up but the gas bottle hire and the torch was just too much of an outlay, but 3 years ago I went for a plasma welder and as there's no bottle gas to worry about it works for me.Gas welding is fun if you can master it.Ian.
Reply:Originally Posted by puddytatHi, many years ago I wanted to get an oxy/acc set-up but the gas bottle hire and the torch was just too much of an outlay, but 3 years ago I went for a plasma welder and as there's no bottle gas to worry about it works for me.Gas welding is fun if you can master it.Ian.
Reply:Originally Posted by drujininI would hazard to guess if I was in the "Boat Building" business, I would want an Oxy/Acet torch set available for the exact same reasons you bought yours for.Keep it up!I think what you are doing is awesome!
Reply:Originally Posted by puddytatHi, many years ago I wanted to get an oxy/acc set-up but the gas bottle hire and the torch was just too much of an outlay, but 3 years ago I went for a plasma welder and as there's no bottle gas to worry about it works for me.Gas welding is fun if you can master it.Ian.
Reply:Hi, I know what you mean, better the devil you know etc.......if you ever want some more info give me a PM, too many argumentive know all types to keep stating the case on the forum and it's been discussed at length here anyway.......been using it for nigh on 3 years now so can speak with a bit of experience.BTW, if you are hell bent on staying with the Oxy/Acc stuff, have a good look at the Dillon or Henrob or Cobra oxy/acc torch, it's been known by all those names.....it's a very economical torch and can work wonders with very economical gas use by all accounts.Google it and read the users' experience.....I used one years ago, about 1994, and it's very specialist in it's application, almost like a scalpel to a surgeon.Ian.
Reply:Originally Posted by puddytatHi, I know what you mean, better the devil you know etc.......if you ever want some more info give me a PM, too many argumentive know all types to keep stating the case on the forum and it's been discussed at length here anyway.......been using it for nigh on 3 years now so can speak with a bit of experience.BTW, if you are hell bent on staying with the Oxy/Acc stuff, have a good look at the Dillon or Henrob or Cobra oxy/acc torch, it's been known by all those names.....it's a very economical torch and can work wonders with very economical gas use by all accounts.Google it and read the users' experience.....I used one years ago, about 1994, and it's very specialist in it's application, almost like a scalpel to a surgeon.Ian.
Reply:The dillon torch didn't look like it would be all that comfortable to use for some reason. I've never used it, I got that impression from watching videos. The dillon guys claim that they can weld stainless with just a reducing flame and after trying it I don't really believe it. Sure, I got metal to stick together, but I wouldn't call it a good weld. They have an oxy/acetylene flame just like any other torch. My little torch is really comfortable and easy to maneuver.
Reply:I can't really comment too much on the wow factor for the Dillon, it's a different design principle, but back in the mid 80's we had a demo session at our model engineer club, and the guy welded an aluminium gearbox casing that looked like it had been buried in a field for a couple of years.....quite a few people at the club bought them on the night.....they were only $300 bucks then.One of my friends that I went to the club with had/has one and over the years I got to use it at his place occasionally. Having seen and used one I know how useful they are.Ian.
Reply:Originally Posted by puddytatI can't really comment too much on the wow factor for the Dillon, it's a different design principle, but back in the mid 80's we had a demo session at our model engineer club, and the guy welded an aluminium gearbox casing that looked like it had been buried in a field for a couple of years.....quite a few people at the club bought them on the night.....they were only $300 bucks then.One of my friends that I went to the club with had/has one and over the years I got to use it at his place occasionally. Having seen and used one I know how useful they are.Ian.
Reply:BTW, that was the complete outfit, pipes, low pressure regulators, case with all the tools etc, whatever, complete kit and caboodle........half a weeks wages for a skilled fitter and turner back then.Anyone who has used one and can't make it work is entirely to blame for not being able to make it work.I have to imagine that most self professed "experts" who learned on other gear that was similar, couldn't adapt to new technologies, so shy away from using them.Having seen the guy demoing the torch at our club in the mid 80's and the results he achieved, I had to admire his expertise..........he was an expert, and in the truest sense of the word too.I would be the first one to say that, if you cannot achieve results with a piece of equipment, despite the rave reviews it has acquired, don't blame the tools......by comparison with other users, you can only get better if you have the ability to do it.Anyone can slice meat, but not anyone can become a brain surgeon. Ian.
Reply:So, the other day, I tried out the cutting attachment so that I could dismantle this old patio chair. There is some good practice steel in it, a bunch of different dia. 16 ga tubing, 3/16 x 1 1/2" flatbar, and 1/4" round stock. I did some welds on the 3/16" stuff. I vee'd the edges. Here's a butt weld that I did. It was vee'd out and I did this weld backhand which made it easier to focus the heat at the root of the weld. Here's the backside, still lacking full penetration. I did a bend test on it. The weld help up, but opened up on the back where the edges were still defined. The thicker stuff is going to be great to weld on cold winter mornings! Sorry for the blurry pics, I only had my phone with me today.
Reply:One other bit of practice I did is more in line with something I would make in the future. Most likely this would be out of bronze. Also, instead of flatbar, a section of pipe could be used so that it would fit on the radius of a spar. It was cool to use the torch for all parts of this project. I cut the flatbar and round stock with the cutting attachment, I heated and bent the round with the torch, and then welded it together. The proportions are a little off on this one as I would probably use 1/8" flatbar and 3/8" round for a real one, but it was fun to put together. I wish I'd gotten pictures of my cuts (they aren't great but they worked). Here's the setup ready to weld. Wire brushed.. Another shot.. Thanks for looking, hopefully, I'm not loading up too many pictures.
Reply:Originally Posted by puddytatBTW, that was the complete outfit, pipes, low pressure regulators, case with all the tools etc, whatever, complete kit and caboodle........half a weeks wages for a skilled fitter and turner back then.Anyone who has used one and can't make it work is entirely to blame for not being able to make it work.I have to imagine that most self professed "experts" who learned on other gear that was similar, couldn't adapt to new technologies, so shy away from using them.Having seen the guy demoing the torch at our club in the mid 80's and the results he achieved, I had to admire his expertise..........he was an expert, and in the truest sense of the word too.I would be the first one to say that, if you cannot achieve results with a piece of equipment, despite the rave reviews it has acquired, don't blame the tools......by comparison with other users, you can only get better if you have the ability to do it.Anyone can slice meat, but not anyone can become a brain surgeon. Ian.
Reply:Village, those last two shots are good welds. That steel ain't going anywhere.Looks like consistency of the movement of your dominant hand could use a bit of work, but it'll come, and your'e on path.O/A welds'll never look like Mig or Tig, so don't stress that, obviously. There's a little nitpicking to be done, (it has) if they can do it better, hand them the torch.Keep it up man.If you fight long enough, you will win. The problem is it costs too damned much.- Lee Cheng
Reply:Originally Posted by bellflowerVillage, those last two shots are good welds. That steel ain't going anywhere.Looks like consistency of the movement of your dominant hand could use a bit of work, but it'll come, and your'e on path.O/A welds'll never look like Mig or Tig, so don't stress that, obviously. There's a little nitpicking to be done, (it has) if they can do it better, hand them the torch.Keep it up man.
Reply:Originally Posted by villageboatshopThanks Bellflower.When you say dominant hand, do you mean filler hand or torch? I'm right handed, I hold the torch in my right hand and the filler in my left. When I watch videos of myself I'm like Shakes McCoy. I have been welding freehand and I hope to have a dedicated table to weld on. I'm hoping that resting both hands on the table will get me a little smoother. I also need a heavier filler hand glove to get closer to the weld.Any other tips you have are appreciated.Makoman, can you show a picture of the T joint fillet you were talking about? Thanks
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860Ian, You are completely out of line to be even speaking the way you are, I will continue this in a PM to avoid further distraction in this thread.
Reply:Originally Posted by puddytatTo be precise, I did not specifically refer to you, although you appear to be an expert in your field, there are other experts who only profess to be.Having seen the Dillon in action and used it.....maybe I have powers you never dreamed of....LOL......whatever.Villageboatshop appears to be getting the hang of it too by the look of his current production, so he is enjoying getting the hang of it and having fun too. Ian.
Reply:Hi Villageboatshop, in the butt weld in the second photo in post # 38 you said you veed the seam out to get penetration.....in my experience, and for what it's worth, as I use different equipment but with similar characteristics to gas welding, you just butt the two halves closely together and start your weld 3mm in with a keyhole approach........if you start right at the edge you'll get a runaway of the melt pool. That is let the torch melt the start of the job to the depth you require and work along the seam as the two halve melt together......you only need to add very little filler just to get the top of the weld seam level without having a sunken look which happens if you don't use filler.You can judge the depth of the weld pool by it's width as the pool melts in a cone like manner, about 60 deg, so the depth of the weld pool will be roughly the width.You might find with Oxy/Acc that the weld pool for thicker stuff is hard to get without using a lot of gas and a big tip, but if you vee the joint out you still have to melt the filler to replace the veed out material, and good filler on thick stuff is hard to come by cheaply.On a 10mm thick plate, without any veeing out, I prefer to weld from both sides, penetrating to about half way, so a weld pool 6mm wide ensures the weld will be over half the depth when you turn over and do the other side.Ian.
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860Well I can one up you on the Dillon....not only have I seen one...and used one...I OWN one and teach using it....and many other torches. Maybe you missed that part.
Reply:Originally Posted by bellflower... O/A welds'll never look like Mig or Tig ...
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uddytat - I'll give that a try while I'm at it. My handbook says over 1/8" should be vee'd out. If I remember right, 1/4" should be a double V, welded from both sides (if possible), similar to what you said. Oldendum - Do you have pictures of that nice bronze fillet weld? I'd love to see it if you do.
Reply:Follow the Handbook as it is probably more accurate.......PSI think you are doing a fine job!
Reply:Originally Posted by villageboatshopPuddytat - I'll give that a try while I'm at it. My handbook says over 1/8" should be vee'd out. If I remember right, 1/4" should be a double V, welded from both sides (if possible), similar to what you said. Oldendum - Do you have pictures of that nice bronze fillet weld? I'd love to see it if you do.
