Is 10/30 still a good "tailor made" circuit for the NEWEST MM

Tue, 31 Aug 2021 14:23:28 GMT

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I am still looking for the unicorn low hour trailblazer and in the mean time I am going to go ahead and pick up its mig compliment MM211 and get to work.  I need to pull a 220 circuit up to my remote welding building that I already have a conduit in for and remember reading in the past that a 10 gauge run up to about 75 feet off of a 30 amp breaker was about a tailor made setup for the older transformer based 211.  Curious if that still holds true for the new inverter based 211.  I for the life of me cannot find the manual online for the new one and it is too late to call miller.  I might have some time this weekend to pull the wire and do some work so need to know.  I am also curious on my box what type of 220 plug I need to install to accommodate the factory plug on my new blue box.  Thanks
Reply:Sounds reasonable. I ran my hobart 210 on a 30 amp circuit.  Out of curiosity last year i went to home depot and bought a 25 amp breaker. Have not tripped it, yet.You need a 6-50 outlet for the machine.
Reply:https://www.millerwelds.com/files/ow...65809A_MIL.pdfElectrical service stuff is in section 5.11 (pdf pg 25).  Technically, a NEMA 6-50 is a 50-A connection, but if you're just doing it in your shop, no one's likely to come in and bust your balls about it.  Might be good to label the outlet though as only being wired for 30 A.  You can calculate your voltage drop based on wire size, length of run, and input current.  Rule of thumb is no greater than 5% drop.  Some say 3%.  A phone call to Miller on Monday might not hurt, as they would know best what their machines would tolerate.
Reply:Here's a good calculator that will tell you minimum wire size or max run length:http://www.southwire.com/support/vol...calculator.htm
Reply:You'll be fine with 10/30 at that distance.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:There is more involved than if you trip a breaker or not...Consider voltage sag when dealing with welding machines.The higher the voltage in, the higher the amperage available when welding.If possible, connect a meter to your welder wall plug, then when actually welding read it....read it for voltage....Then ref the charts hopefully offered with your welder that cite welder amps output compared to welder volts input.The idea of running a proper circuit involves more than installing the correct breaker to protect the circuit. When it comes to high amp draw stuff like welders and even some home appliances, and shop air compressors, you really need to know just how stiff your voltage is at the wall in your shop when it is under load...Working load.Never starve high amp draw equipment with questionable sized conductors just to save a few bucks.
Reply:I just pulled up an old millermatic manual online and it said under elec specs that it could even run off of 14 AWG and 35A non time delay.  I feel plenty good at about a 65 foot actual run using number 10 wire.  I thought the newer millermatics being inverter based pulled less juice but I guess i will have to wait till monday morning to have them send me a manual to see how much less.  I would also think duty cycle in relation to the supply wire handling the run to the receptacle and heating of said wire.  The millermatic is a fairly low duty cycle machine that is not running anywhere near 100 percent duty at full tilt on 220.  I won't go less then number 10 wire and have a lot left over from wiring other 220 in the rest of my shop.  I am still undecided on the breaker though after reading the older manual.  I am the only one that ever uses my shop and there is NOT a lot of other stuff running at the same time.  I actually do have 240 volts here and I upgraded the entire service to a 300 amp main with a 150 amp panel in my shop that "this" circuit is coming off of.
Reply:From house to building you need the biggest THWN that will fit. What is your conduit. Typically, 3/4" is the smallest as it must be schedule 80 from the bottom of the ditch, to a height of 8' above ground. This will fit 3 #6, and one #8 ground.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:It is 1/2 inch schedule 40 and I know I can get 5 number 10 in there but will only be taking four.  There will not be any schedule 80 above ground here.  I have schedule 80 on every other above ground point all over my property and slip joints that was inspected by the state a few months ago.  In this case the trench was open, I had leftover 1/2 conduit and it will be coming up inside the outbuilding directly into a box then I can then protect the conduit once run.  Maybe I have a false sense of security here after doing some reading in the original manual for the older units and reading about power supply using 14 I feel pretty good going up to 10....I also know that heat buildup with 4 10's in a 1/2 is not ideal but on the duty cycle it will be used at I guess I am not concerned there either.  I don't plan on running a larger machine in this outbuilding then this 211.. period.  It is literally just a windless shelter that is convenient to weld in.  My main shop will have a dedicated welding area once it is not used as a base camp while building my house.
Reply:Originally Posted by Willie BFrom house to building you need the biggest THWN that will fit. What is your conduit. Typically, 3/4" is the smallest as it must be schedule 80 from the bottom of the ditch, to a height of 8' above ground. This will fit 3 #6, and one #8 ground.
Replybotos posted up the manual240v 16.6 amps at rated 150 welding amps. 30amp CBEd Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1Dbotos posted up the manual240v 16.6 amps at rated 150 welding amps. 30amp CB
Reply:A backhoe won't notice the difference between half inch schedule 40 and 80 . Remember, the difference in wall thickness of heavier schedules gets deducted from the inside diameter, so if space is at a premium ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,."The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life." -Theodore Roosevelt
Reply:If you're planning on installing a 240v circuit, why not go the easy route and do it right the first time.  Just go with a 50amp breaker plus 8ga (I did 6ga so I could pull a full 50amps without worry) wiring to the 6-50R outlet?   You'll never need 50amps for a 211 inverter, but you'll have the extra "juice" should you need it, say for an old AC-225 buzzbox (set on high) or something similar.Lincoln Power Mig 216Lincoln AC/DC-225/125Miller  625 X-Treme PlasmaMiller 211 Forney 95FI-A 301HF 91110Victor Journeyman O/PMilwaukee DaytonMakita  Baileigh NRA Life Member
Reply:Originally Posted by SuperArcIf you're planning on installing a 240v circuit, why not go the easy route and do it right the first time.  Just go with a 50amp breaker plus 8ga (I did 6ga so I could pull a full 50amps without worry) wiring to the 6-50R outlet?   You'll never need 50amps for a 211 inverter, but you'll have the extra "juice" should you need it, say for an old AC-225 buzzbox (set on high) or something similar.
Reply:Originally Posted by dbotoshttps://www.millerwelds.com/files/ow...65809A_MIL.pdfElectrical service stuff is in section 5.11 (pdf pg 25).  Technically, a NEMA 6-50 is a 50-A connection, but if you're just doing it in your shop, no one's likely to come in and bust your balls about it.  Might be good to label the outlet though as only being wired for 30 A.  You can calculate your voltage drop based on wire size, length of run, and input current.  Rule of thumb is no greater than 5% drop.  Some say 3%.  A phone call to Miller on Monday might not hurt, as they would know best what their machines would tolerate.
Reply:All great info posted. Just remember most of us do or did this for a living and ALWAYS GO OVERKILL ! It's just the way we are. No matter what you do it is not enough for some of us. Using 1/8'' thick steel for a project is on heard of, start at 1/4'' and go from there.
Reply:Originally Posted by dbotoshttps://www.millerwelds.com/files/ow...65809A_MIL.pdfElectrical service stuff is in section 5.11 (pdf pg 25).  Technically, a NEMA 6-50 is a 50-A connection, but if you're just doing it in your shop, no one's likely to come in and bust your balls about it.  Might be good to label the outlet though as only being wired for 30 A.  You can calculate your voltage drop based on wire size, length of run, and input current.  Rule of thumb is no greater than 5% drop.  Some say 3%.  A phone call to Miller on Monday might not hurt, as they would know best what their machines would tolerate.
Reply:I remind you the between building stuff is a feeder. It does not qualify for the same loopholes, or laws of physics as the welder circuit. As for voltage loss, minimum voltage may vary. peak performance will be at or above nameplate specification. Typically this will be 230 Volts. Power companies usually supply 240. Loss begins out at the street, and continues in each conductor until it arrives in the welder. For many of us this means 10 volt loss is Ed or acceptable voltage loss  K x 2 x I x L / Ed =CMA ,or inversely, K x 2 x L x I / CMA = EdK is resistance in ohms per mil foot; 12.9 for Copper, 21.2 for Aluminum2 because electricity must travel round trip. I is amperage totalL is length in feetEd is acceptable loss in volts.CMA is from Table 8 chapter 9 NEC   #10 is 10380, #8 is 16510, #6 is 26240, #4 is 41740, 3 is 52620An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:It is illegal to run a single 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit. I haven't looked it up, but I wonder if that might extend to other amperages. The hazard is people are stupid. Welder circuits are different from others. If a plug mates up, somebody will plug into it. I've seen a number of small fires when somebody plugged a high current machine Ex: air conditioner, electric heater, air compressor, 120 v welder, hair dryer, etc. into a cheaply installed general purpose outlet.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

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